sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

[hernanday]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

The inconvenient truth for some is Johnson skirted the best black challengers as the lineal champion. He probably drew the color line against top rated balcks fighter more than any other champion in history.


No title matches were given to Sam McVey, Joe Jeannette, or Sam Langford from 1908-1915. Gee I wonder why. Jeanette said it best. " When Johnson became champion he forgot his old friends and drew the color line against this own people. " Did Johnson seek out Wills post 1915? I tend to doubt it. Heck, he didn't even re-match Jim Battling Johnson, who according to some reports was the better in the 1913 match, and had Johnson hurt and ready to go.

I agree with this. and it is basically what I was trying to say.


and mcvey, I never said Johnson never fought black fighters, I said he HAD A REPUTATION FOR DODGING BLACK FIGHTERS. What this means is many people believe this and feel this way and the fact that he could go 8 years as champ avoiding 3 of the top contenders tells you something. He may have fought black guys on the way up, but once he got the title he wasn't going to fight any black guy who could beat him. In otherwords he only fought black tomato cans.

Many people get all offended when they are told that a fav of their fought guys who were easy competition for THEM. but the truth is a good boxing manager will never face you up against someone who you can lose against or will give you lots of trouble unless it is going to be a major payday and the fighter is nearing the end of his career. This is why many fights never happen in boxing foreman vs tyson

[lufcrazy]

Tough call.

Liston by rights should win behind the jab, but it isn't too difficult to imagine Johnson slipping the jab and tagging him an uppercut.

Could he handle the constant walking down pressure Liston would poor on him though? Very competitive. I think Johnson would win the inside exchanges here, if he can get there.

I'm gonna say Liston should start favourite, and he'd be my pick on points, but I wouldn't be surprised if Johnson won this fight (well actually I would considering both men have passed, but you know what I mean )

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by hernanday

I agree with this. and it is basically what I was trying to say.


and mcvey, I never said Johnson never fought black fighters, I said he HAD A REPUTATION FOR DODGING BLACK FIGHTERS. What this means is many people believe this and feel this way and the fact that he could go 8 years as champ avoiding 3 of the top contenders tells you something. He may have fought black guys on the way up, but once he got the title he wasn't going to fight any black guy who could beat him. In otherwords he only fought black tomato cans.

Many people get all offended when they are told that a fav of their fought guys who were easy competition for THEM. but the truth is a good boxing manager will never face you up against someone who you can lose against or will give you lots of trouble unless it is going to be a major payday and the fighter is nearing the end of his career. This is why many fights never happen in boxing foreman vs tyson

A 185lbs Johnson knocked a 156lbs Langford down twice for long 9 counts , he broke his nose and beat the shit out of him.Langford had over 50 fights under his belt at the time.
Undoubtedly Langford improved after this, equally undoubtedly so did Johnson.
Johnson scored multiple knockdowns over Jeannette in their series .
Jeannette managed just one win, on a disputed dsq in a fight he was losing.


Johnson thrashed McVey three out of three knocking him senseless in their last fight.
McVey never expressed an interest in going for a fourth bout.
Johnson fought every black top ranker prior to holding the title, in effect he cleaned house.
When he was champion the NSC offered Johnson a derisory £3000 to defend his title against Langford ,an offer he naturally rejected. Barney Curley and Jim Coffroth two of the three most prominent promoters both stated that the "American public will not pay to watch two n*****s fight for the championship". Proposed bouts with Jeannette and Langford were vetoed by officials several times , its easy to find the details.

On another occasion Joe Woodman ,Langford's manager had to withdraw from negotiations for a match when he could not come up with the $$$$.

The" black tomato "can you refer to,[Battling Jim Johnson] drew with Jeannette twice just months after drawing with Johnson who was fighting with a broken arm, and had drawn with him previously ,he also beat Jeannette a year later. In none of those fights was Jeannette injured.
Battling Jim kod Pelkey, beat Ross ,and Tate,drew with Mcvey and Langford x2 &beat Jeff Clark.If he is a "tomato can," how good were they?

Johnson took full page adverts in several national papers ,stating he would fight ANYBODY who could come up with $30,000, the sum Tommy Burns had received for defending against him, back in 1908.
Again these are easy to find.

The US Public were not interested in Johnson defending against another black man , hence the White Hope era,so Johnson made easy $$$ knocking over vanilla hued challengers because they were whom the paying public demanded he fight.

Tell me, what would you have done ? Fought Langford for £3,000 and have to travel to the UK to do so or, fight Jim Flynn,[ whom you had already comfortably beaten,] for $30,000 In the US?
Its a no brainer to me .

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

There you go again.....First off no one living has seen most of the Johnson fights you are alluding to. You try to diminish the O'Brien match by saying no one alive has seen it ( gee I wonder why ) then list other fights not on video as some proof for Johnson dealing with good jabbers? Do you realize the double standards you create?

The only filmed one listed is Willard. As slow and clumsy as he was, Willard landed his share on the outside in the flimed rounds. Its a given that Liston would do much better. Willard a good jabber, you say? Wow.


How is the O'Brien fight meaningless? Johnson was in his prime and the new champion. O'brien's jab got to Johnson, and multiple newspapers will tell you this.


Johnson wasn't close Ali in movement skills, nor did he have the reach or chin to deal with Liston as Ali did. In this match Johnson is meat.

Multiple news papers tell me Johnson bundled O Brien around whenever he could get near enough to the fleeing challenger .The fight means zero to me, simply because Johnson could not lose unless he was stopped, since O Brien had no real power, this was not not going to happen .
It was a six rounds no decision affair

"Three or four times during the mixes-up, O'Brien was roughed to the floor, and once ge got tangled in the ropes." (Philadelphia Inquirer)
Philadelphia Inquirer scored for Johnson. Wilkes-Barre Times Leader had O'Brien winning three rounds, with two even, and 5th round to Johnson (same report was printed in NY Sun and Washington Herald). NY Times ruled it a draw. Wire in multiple newspapers (for example, San Francisco Call) had it a draw. Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought O'Brien the winner by a shade.
Sports editor of Philadelphia Inquirer in May 23 issue wrote: "A half dozen writers, for instance, gave Johnson the credit of having won the bout, but no two of them agreed as to the distance by which he won, and if you read all these accounts you must have come to the conclusion that he won any distance from a whisker to a city block. And it was the same with the able gentlemen who espoused the O'Brien cause. Some declared that he won all the way, and that but for his willingness to take the initiative there would have been no milling at all, while others gave him the decision solely for the splendid showing he made against such a tremendous physical handicap."






Johnson forgot about his old friends? Langford and Johnson detested one another and Jeannette spent his career disparaging the man who beat him multiple times.
You will find several complimentary quotes about Langford and Jeannette attributed to Johnson , I challenge you to find one from either that is complimentary to him .

Both picked Jeffries to beat him, and both looked like complete arseholes after Johnson kicked the shit out of Jeffries.
McVey was a close friend of Johnson's,and seconded him on numerous occasions, he also lived with him for awhile .and Johnson paid for his funeral.
Johnson beat the drum for several black fighters including his sparring partner Kid Cotton, it is untrue that he resented other black heavyweights ,as his close friendship with McVey attests.
Summing up , Johnson owed Langford ,and Jeannette fuck all.

Johnson was out partying the night before the O Brien fight , he did little or no training for it because he knew he did not have to . But you have a good time masturbating about it.

Using O Brien as a stick to beat Johnson is as ridiculous as castigating a 37 years old Johnson for not fighting Wills in 1915 Johnson lost his crown in April of that year that gives a window of less than 4 months for him to defend against Wills in a match that would have drawn pea nuts.
Wills was a onetime sparring partner for Johnson , but Johnson sacked him because he could not handle the punishment.


You conveniently omit the fact that Johnson broke his arm in the Battling Johnson fight.

Oh, and Battling Jim drew with Jeannette just 7 months after he drew with the one armed Johnson, and he again drew with him 4 months after that ,then a year later Battling Jim beat Jeannette, in NONE of these fights did Jeannette have a broken arm.

Incidentally in Nov 1914 Wills was kod by a fat Langford, and in Dec outpointed over 20 by McVey, in a May 1915 fight with McVey , Wills won just one of the 10 rounds.


O Brien was a fast, mobile, in and out boxer who lacked power , and was strictly defensive ,sounds just like Liston doesn't it?

Why do you compare Johnson to Ali?

Willard was noted for his jab and film of him in action confirms it.[Frank Moran & Floyd Johnson].
The fighters I named are described as good jabbers in the information available about them ,if you choose to dismiss ,this no one will be surprised or care, because as McGrain stated, you have zero credibilty on the subject of John Arthur Johnson.

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Johnson who was at his best up close had trouble with good jabbers and power hitters. To get up close Johnson would have to get past Liston's jab. I don't see it. And if Johnson gets up close he puts himself in the danger zone of Liston bombs.


Liston could fight inside or out, and had a very dangerous arsenal of hooks, jabs, crosses, and uppercuts. Those who engaged Liston in close quarters did not last long. For a power hitter, Liston was rather technical. Even on defense. Liston via KO, perhaps early if Johnson doesn't run.

Since when was Jack Johnson such an aggressive, come forward fighter and when did he have trouble with power hitters? He wasn't KOed till he was shot to shit and unmotivated against Willard and it still took 24 rounds. Johnson Is right up there as the most durable heavyweight ever and that is including Ali.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Webbiano

Since when was Jack Johnson such an aggressive, come forward fighter and when did he have trouble with power hitters? He wasn't KOed till he was shot to shit and unmotivated against Willard and it still took 24 rounds. Johnson Is right up there as the most durable heavyweight ever and that is including Ali.

He was KO'd earlier in his career by a super middle although he was of similiar size when he fought, he was naturally way bigger. Also decked by a middle while he was a full fledged heavyweight. The biggest puncher's he faced (by his own admission) he held rather significant weight advantages over, not to say Johnson isn't durable but I don't think he's very proven, certainly not as much as Ali. Also considering how much better he was compared to the fighters of his era and his defensive prowess his chin wasn't nearly as tested as Ali's. So it's very hard to determine whether he could take what Liston could dish out. Also, thing is Johnson has never met anyone like Liston a combination of size, strength, skill, stamina, chin, jab and punching power. I'm leaning towards Liston.

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

He was KO'd earlier in his career by a super middle although he was of similiar size when he fought, he was naturally way bigger. Also decked by a middle while he was a full fledged heavyweight. The biggest puncher's he faced (by his own admission) he held rather significant weight advantages over, not to say Johnson isn't durable but I don't think he's very proven, certainly not as much as Ali. Also considering how much better he was compared to the fighters of his era and his defensive prowess his chin wasn't nearly as tested as Ali's. So it's very hard to determine whether he could take what Liston could dish out. Also, thing is Johnson has never met anyone like Liston a combination of size, strength, skill, stamina, chin, jab and punching power. I'm leaning towards Liston.

Don't get me wrong, I can see arguments against it, but a very young Johnson getting stopped doesn't mean to much to me. It seems people only bring up an early career KO loss if they are subjectivity against that fighter and doesn't fit their agenda. Do people say jimmy young has chin issues because he was stopped by shavers very early on?? Also on the Ketchel fight I don't see much revelance, but that is just my opinion. I can't honestly see how that fight wasn't being carried. Ketchel although being 160 pounds still hit like a mule, and I don't think Johnson was prepared for the shot at all. The fact he got up and stopped Stanley 3 or 4 seconds after he hit the canvas himself also adds to the evidence that the fight was probably being carried.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Webbiano

Don't get me wrong, I can see arguments against it, but a very young Johnson getting stopped doesn't mean to much to me. It seems people only bring up an early career KO loss if they are subjectivity against that fighter and doesn't fit their agenda. Do people say jimmy young has chin issues because he was stopped by shavers very early on?? Also on the Ketchel fight I don't see much revelance, but that is just my opinion. I can't honestly see how that fight wasn't being carried. Ketchel although being 160 pounds still hit like a mule, and I don't think Johnson was prepared for the shot at all. The fact he got up and stopped Stanley 3 or 4 seconds after he hit the canvas himself also adds to the evidence that the fight was probably being carried.

I agree with the Ketchel point, I think Johnson wasn't expecting him to get frisky (can't think of a better word soz) but I just couldn't envision someone like Ali being decked by the same shot. From memory there are several points in the Ketchel fight where Johnson was literally carrying him.

Just playing Devils advocate really.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Webbiano

Since when was Jack Johnson such an aggressive, come forward fighter and when did he have trouble with power hitters? He wasn't KOed till he was shot to shit and unmotivated against Willard and it still took 24 rounds. Johnson Is right up there as the most durable heavyweight ever and that is including Ali.

Twenty six rounds actually.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Webbiano

Don't get me wrong, I can see arguments against it, but a very young Johnson getting stopped doesn't mean to much to me. It seems people only bring up an early career KO loss if they are subjectivity against that fighter and doesn't fit their agenda. Do people say jimmy young has chin issues because he was stopped by shavers very early on?? Also on the Ketchel fight I don't see much revelance, but that is just my opinion. I can't honestly see how that fight wasn't being carried. Ketchel although being 160 pounds still hit like a mule, and I don't think Johnson was prepared for the shot at all. The fact he got up and stopped Stanley 3 or 4 seconds after he hit the canvas himself also adds to the evidence that the fight was probably being carried.

Ketchel was over 170lbs for the Johnson fight.

[JWSoats]

Tough call, but I think Liston's best chances are in the early rounds. It would probably be a dull fight, and if Johnson started clinching early, that would work to Liston's advantage. I think Johnson would try to get inside Liston's head, long before the fight actually started. He would leave no doubt that he had no fear of Liston, and would be flashing his golden smile all over the place. He would play it safe, boxing Liston during the early rounds, taking no chances. He would only start clinching if he knew that he could handle Liston in close. He would talk to Liston throughout the fight, looking to demoralize him. I would predict that Johnson would survive the early rounds and work his way to a dull decision victory.

[steve w]

Punching power is the key here, Liston had it and Johnson did not, by his own admission he did not have heavy hands, Johson was ahead of his time but the Liston jab would win the day.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by steve w

Punching power is the key here, Liston had it and Johnson did not, by his own admission he did not have heavy hands, Johson was ahead of his time but the Liston jab would win the day.

I agree Johnson did not possess Liston's power ,but he was not feather fisted either. He kod Denver Ed Martin for so long the authorities held him in custody in case Martin died.Sam McVey has 5 stoppages on his 89 fight record, three were because of disputed fouls , one was after 49rds with Jeannette, when McVey could not see his opponent any longer, only two were kos ,one to Langford ,one to Johnson,when McVey regained consciousness against Johnson , he asked his manager, "what happened?" His manager replied," it was a draw , and they robbed us". Johnson seldom went for the ko , but he could hit alright.

[TheSouthpaw]

Johnson's leepin in with wild punches and trying to clinch with Sonny...Johnson has no business in the ring with the likes of a Sonny Liston..Johnson just wasn't a skilled enough boxer to last more than 3 rounds with Sonny...Liston dismantles him!

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by TheSouthpaw

Johnson's leepin in with wild punches and trying to clinch with Sonny...Johnson has no business in the ring with the likes of a Sonny Liston..Johnson just wasn't a skilled enough boxer to last more than 3 rounds with Sonny...Liston dismantles him!

It's a point of view. Bert Whitehurst 24-14-4 went the ten rounds distance with Liston twice . Ditto 179/180lbs Marty Marshall.

Guess they were more skilled than Johnson.


I'll have to rethink how I evaluate boxers.