Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

[SuzieQ49]

Mcgrain just raped Chokelab.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Mcgrain just raped Chokelab.

Suzie, if you can real all that crap, you're a better man than I am.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Mcgrain just raped Chokelab.

Oh yes I survived a ***ual attack but only from a totally impotent rapist….

Mgrain listed a whole load of stats from a fight (that were wrong anyway) to prove a throw away “figure of speech” was wrong.

He might be a bit petty but is still a good poster though.

My point (off the top of my head) was that Marciano was hard to nail with (and left few openings for) a long, outside jab. And Mcgrain proved me right.

See if Mcgrain can prove me wrong this time:


5’7’’ Albert Westphal (neither world class nor rated in any world) was hit with only 6 of 21 jabs from Sonny Liston.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Mcgrain just raped Chokelab.

I didn't enjoy it. It made me feel dirty.

Originally Posted by choklab

5’7’’ Albert Westphal (neither world class nor rated in any world) was hit with only 6 of 21 jabs from Sonny Liston.

What, for around 30%, or average? That is completely normal.

choklab, I don't think you really understand what happens in a boxing ring.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Very good. This is the first time you have dealt directly with this problem. You have a very definite opinion which is easy to agree with or refute. Here is my question to you -

Upon which Liston performance is this opinion based?

Where, on film, can I see him struggling to land the jab on a low, smothering, elbow and shoulder stance?
?

Baring in mind Albert westphal was not world class and the result Liston recorded against him could have been achieved by most top 5 rated contenders Listons jab stats of that fight was only 6 landing of 21 correct jabs. Liston was even countered a few times. Not that good against a 5’7’’ guy who was not that good of an opponent for a world #1 contender.

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I didn't enjoy it. It made me feel dirty.

I am just glad there was no viagra. you beast!

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Mee, Tosches nor Steen, probably all 3 sit down to pee, and would all be in fear and awe of the Liston legend or they would not have had the fascination to write a book about the man, I would not expect them to say he quit when the going got tough fighter who had heart and courage and the most power Liston ever faced.

I think that's more than a little unfair. You obviously haven't read these books, so dismissing the writers as bias is an incredible thing to do. In fact, you are probably right about Tosches - who says Liston did not quit dog - but I think you are being extremely harsh on Mee and Steen. Theses guys are legitimate journalists who do not find "for" Liston in some biased wrap-up, but just don't pass direct comment - they understand that the fight is circumstances are too complex for that. IMO, a serious investigation of the fights should only allow that concusion to be drawn.

you say he did not quit against Ali

No. I do not say that. But I acknowledge the possibility.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by choklab

I am just glad there was no viagra. you beast!

OK. Well i'll guess we'll call that a day. No hard feelings? I do genuinely think you are all over the place, as you know, but I respect you for fighting your corner this vigorously. I'm sure we'd see the same sort of Herculian effort from Marciano in a losing effort v Liston

[choklab]

Originally Posted by McGrain

OK. Well i'll guess we'll call that a day. No hard feelings? I do genuinely think you are all over the place, as you know, but I respect you for fighting your corner this vigorously. I'm sure we'd see the same sort of Herculian effort from Marciano in a losing effort v Liston

sure, You also did sonny proud, giving more effort than he ever did at elite level. No hard feelings.

[hernanday]

Originally Posted by Hookie

Liston's taller, heavier, and has a longer reach.

Marciano always had the shorter reach. His plan vs. Liston would not be to outjab him...duh... he's gonna come forward, slip some punches and take the others, get close, get inside, and work the body, head, shoulders, arm, elbows, wrists, neck, hips... anything he can hit... and hit it hard.

O yeah and that is what Floyd Patterson said to himself too until Liston mauled him

Liston would just plain out destroy the guy, and if Marciano retired to avoid Patterson I don't know what he would do to avoid liston, maybe move to cuba.
Only a mover could beat liston or possibly a stronger brawler like foreman or possibly an extremely fast handed hard hitting swarmer with early ko power like Tyson, and the last category is a bit dubious. If Marciano could tire out liston he could win, but I don't see him surviving the punches and the fact that liston had 84 reach to his 67 it'd be nearly impossible for marciano to just land a punch when the other guy has almost on foot on each arm over you.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

The only real arguments that I've heard in favor of Marciano ( or at least the ones that keep coming up ) are

" Rocky would force sonny to stop throwing the jab"

" Liston would fold under pressure as soon as someone stood up to him"

" an extra 30 lbs in weight and 17 inches in reach are irrelevant "

" Beating Floyd Patterson meant nothing, because Floyd was too terrified"



Now there may be some valid arguments which could give some REAL insight as to why Marciano should be favored, but I have yet to hear such perspectives.

I am not sure if anyone could fairly make Marciano the favorite. Truthfully, it's a fight that's tough to call. It's a puzzle with a few missing pieces. The idea that Liston is a significant favorite, or a heavy favorite should be the bigger argument being made by ardent Marciano fans. I'll pick Rocky but I'm not going to tell you he should be favored. Besides, why wouldn't Liston be favored on paper? He's always going to be that type of fighter who's better in estimation on paper than anywhere else. Fortunately, the fight gets fought in the squared circle.

The argument goes that if Marciano can take some of the necessary licks, without taking anything too much heavy or clean (Latter is most key), then he can make it an inside affair where Liston's longer arms and speed reveal Liston to be clunky and at a disadvantage. Then it becomes a question if Marciano can get himself in position without taking just a disastrous beating on the outside or getting knocked out (Hardly implausible), Liston's mental fragility will begin to surface. Liston may have dealt with the least amount of adversity or sustained resistance before the Ali fights than any other HW champion barring Foreman. He had the 2 round thriller against Cleveland Williams. Hardly an obstacle, more like a speed bump. The last time he had adversity when his jaw was broke and he lost that fight. Only Foreman faced less adversity, but he showed his grit against Lyle and his comeback.

Don't think to mention Tyson. His style forced him to take adversity as much literally as anyone could. His fights where Ruddock were displays of heart and grit tenfold to Liston. It's not just Liston being a bully that people might want to question but it's actually his stamina... his physiologically built in a way that's oxygen taxing (Big boned, dense muscles, long arms, etc). He paced himself. If Marciano can elude and take when he has to, it's going to be the first time someone forced to push Liston at a pace he didn't set and at a range he doesn't prefer since the Ali fights. I think Liston was a splendid fighter at what he did. Top-notch power and great boxing skills. He was so great that he could control the range and pace easily. I wonder if he could against Marciano. I don't just question his heart & toughness. I question his endurance. Luckily, Liston is somewhat ponderous. These weakness don't really complement themselves well together. If it's a sprint, Liston is guaranteed to win. But if it's a marathon... who knows.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by hernanday

O yeah and that is what Floyd Patterson said to himself too until Liston mauled him

Liston would just plain out destroy the guy, and if Marciano retired to avoid Patterson I don't know what he would do to avoid liston, maybe move to cuba.
Only a mover could beat liston or possibly a stronger brawler like foreman or possibly an extremely fast handed hard hitting swarmer with early ko power like Tyson, and the last category is a bit dubious. If Marciano could tire out liston he could win, but I don't see him surviving the punches and the fact that liston had 84 reach to his 67 it'd be nearly impossible for marciano to just land a punch when the other guy has almost on foot on each arm over you.

Where on earth did you get the idea that Marciano retired to avoid Patterson?
You've posted that a couple of times today.

Patterson would have been the last person Marciano would have tried to avoid. I doubt if Marciano had even heard of Patterson.

That's like saying a grizzly bear retired to avoid a mouse.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

I am not sure if anyone could fairly make Marciano the favorite. Truthfully, it's a fight that's tough to call. It's a puzzle with a few missing pieces. The idea that Liston is a significant favorite, or a heavy favorite should be the bigger argument being made by ardent Marciano fans. I'll pick Rocky but I'm not going to tell you he should be favored. Besides, why wouldn't Liston be favored on paper? He's always going to be that type of fighter who's better in estimation on paper than anywhere else. Fortunately, the fight gets fought in the squared circle.

The argument goes that if Marciano can take some of the necessary licks, without taking anything too much heavy or clean (Latter is most key), then he can make it an inside affair where Liston's longer arms and speed reveal Liston to be clunky and at a disadvantage. Then it becomes a question if Marciano can get himself in position without taking just a disastrous beating on the outside or getting knocked out (Hardly implausible), Liston's mental fragility will begin to surface. Liston may have dealt with the least amount of adversity or sustained resistance before the Ali fights than any other HW champion barring Foreman. He had the 2 round thriller against Cleveland Williams. Hardly an obstacle, more like a speed bump. The last time he had adversity when his jaw was broke and he lost that fight. Only Foreman faced less adversity, but he showed his grit against Lyle and his comeback.

Don't think to mention Tyson. His style forced him to take adversity as much literally as anyone could. His fights where Ruddock were displays of heart and grit tenfold to Liston. It's not just Liston being a bully that people might want to question but it's actually his stamina... his physiologically built in a way that's oxygen taxing (Big boned, dense muscles, long arms, etc). He paced himself. If Marciano can elude and take when he has to, it's going to be the first time someone forced to push Liston at a pace he didn't set and at a range he doesn't prefer since the Ali fights. I think Liston was a splendid fighter at what he did. Top-notch power and great boxing skills. He was so great that he could control the range and pace easily. I wonder if he could against Marciano. I don't just question his heart & toughness. I question his endurance. Luckily, Liston is somewhat ponderous. These weakness don't really complement themselves well together. If it's a sprint, Liston is guaranteed to win. But if it's a marathon... who knows.

The close I look at Sonnys record the less I am impressed with the quality...Patterson was his best win and Machen and Foley next in line but Machen was KO'd in 1 round by ingo and Foley ko'd by 12-1 Alejandro Lavorante less than a year later then Ko;d by Doug Jones within the next 2 years.

Liston had a good run leading up to Patterson but IMO his best wins of his career were over a faded Nino Valdes, Foley and Machen after Floyd Patterson who was his best and most impressive win as well as Big Cat but Williams is not even in the class of a Ron Lyle or a Tony Thompson or Mac Foster IMO

So while Liston should get credit for beating the best of his time, he fought a weak bunch minus Patterson, Machen and Foley who were good contenders but not outstanding in any other era IMO


By the way good post

[hernanday]

Originally Posted by BillB

Where on earth did you get the idea that Marciano retired to avoid Patterson?
You've posted that a couple of times today.

Patterson would have been the last person Marciano would have tried to avoid. I doubt if Marciano had even heard of Patterson.

That's like saying a grizzly bear retired to avoid a mouse.

Marciano defended his title 6 times in 4 years. His reign was not very long, he pro boxed for 7 years then retired. he retired at 32 and some months. For someone who has never lost a match, I don't know what else you call it. You can say he went out on top, fine, but the guy went out on top because he knew he would lose to patterson.

Patterson only won gold medal in the olympics, Marciano would never had heard of him. Cus d'amato only made a major press release in 1954 saying Patterson was going to go for the heavyweight championship.

Archie Moore knocked down Marciano, marciano put down moore 5 times by round 9. Patterson annihilated him in 5 and Moore never got up. Patterson was younger, faster, hit harder and more evasive and had good endurance. By the time marciano retired Patterson knocked out 10 of his last 11 opponents. Further at that point Patterson had never been down either. And I use to see lots of moose and a moose is bigger, weighs more and is more scary than a grizzly it can be 7.5 feet tall weigh 1600 pounds and gore a bear dead.

Marciano's managers admitted that they would only match him up against guys he could defeat and asthe old axiom in boxing goes an undefeated fighter is usually one who just either dodged competitors or had a weak era. Old man walcott out boxed marciano for 13 rounds, you think a younger faster guy wouldn't? Marciano beat up alot of past greats, but they were all almost 40 in a time when the average man lived to be about 50 something.

[grumpy]

Liston's jab would cut him up in a competitive fight. Liston wins on cuts sometime after 8 rounds.