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Old 10-08-2012, 08:52 AM   #46
TheGreatA
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
Been repeated many times. The idea that old-timers were more skillful and better in general than contemporary boxers is a psychological fallacy. Read the experts' or trainers' opinions about contemporary fighters from 30 years ago, 50 years, 100 years ago, they all claim that the past boxers/trainers were better, and many old-school skills have been lost, modern boxers are crude and tough, lacking skills, and champions and top contenders are not fighting meaningful fights very often and are all about money, picking weak opponents, etc etc. Bullshit, plain and simple. Experience is important, but not as much as many like to believe. If the fighter is average, he'll stay average even if he has 500 bouts, he'll still lose to a youngster with better physical attributes and only 10 fights.
I think Wladimir Klitschko (vs Puritty) might disagree with that notion.

How many times have we seen a comparatively average fighter upset a future champion due to an advantage in experience? Countless times.

Experience is not all about competing in a hundred fights though (see Wlad's 24 fights before Puritty). It's about taking on quality opponents and learning from those experiences. A fighter who competes a hundred times against the same type of opponent won't learn much more than he would have from his first couple of fights, that much I can agree with.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:11 AM   #47
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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True but Joe Frazier pretty much beats any heavyweight post 1970 save for Lewis, possibly Tyson, (foreman is a carryover). Yet his son who presumably had all his knowledge couldn't cut it. He had roughly the same genes so there is no reason why he be any worst or better in terms of athelticism. So clearly it is something more than its just conspiacy, when a guy's son of a top boxer is not very good. If anything Marvis should be an amazing boxer because all he had to do was beat one of the 500 guys who held titles during the 80s.

Seriously though if frazier can beat Ali, then he should have been able to prep his son to beat an inferior mover likeHolmes, it shouldn't have been round 1 ko.
A son does not necessarily possess the punching power, toughness and determination that their father did, as was the case with Marvis Frazier.

It's not difficult to understand, especially when you also take into account that Marvis grew up relatively well off while his father grew up relatively poor, as a result of Joe Frazier's hard work and success.

The sons of notable boxers rarely had to fight their way through poverty when their fathers had usually done so already, and were likely motivated to take up boxing due to their name recognition and the money that was going to be in it for them. They didn't have to carve out their names, wealth and fame by fighting. Motivation can be a huge factor in a sport as grueling as boxing.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:03 AM   #48
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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It is a less competitive era nowadays and 'achievement' is easier to come by.
I didn't say anything about achievements, titles, who's beating whom or how much interest the sport generates. I'm saying there are plenty of skillful technicians nowadays. And I doubt they have learned it by watching the film of old-timers. Anyway, my point is, it all depends how you gonna look at this, whether you gonna look for the positive or for the negative about this or that timespan or this or that fighter.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:05 AM   #49
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

Read the rest of my posts and you'll see I pretty much agree.

My point is that there are less

I also never said anything about great trainers making average fighters really good.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:16 AM   #50
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In some cases this is true, but when I watch joe louis and then I watch pretty much any challenger in the heavyweight division, it is almost laughabley bad, how terrible these guys are. all tomatoes, beer bellies, no discipline.
Joe Louis' "Bum of the month club"?
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:17 AM   #51
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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I think Wladimir Klitschko (vs Puritty) might disagree with that notion.

How many times have we seen a comparatively average fighter upset a future champion due to an advantage in experience? Countless times.

Experience is not all about competing in a hundred fights though (see Wlad's 24 fights before Puritty). It's about taking on quality opponents and learning from those experiences. A fighter who competes a hundred times against the same type of opponent won't learn much more than he would have from his first couple of fights, that much I can agree with.
A good amount of amateur fights also brings in a lot of experience.
Good sparring partners.
And a good trainer.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:22 AM   #52
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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My point is that there are less

I also never said anything about great trainers making average fighters really good.
That's just an opinion. We can't count them, also we'd need to come up with a criteria how to compare them and how to choose the timespan we gonna compare.

I only used it to point out that the importance of great knowledgable trainers is somewhat overrated, in my opinion. It's more about the boxer, than about trainer, IMHO. At least to me it's easier to find good technicians who didn't have a great trainer, than to find examples when great trainers made good technicians out of ordinary boxers.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:30 AM   #53
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most agree that from a technical standpoint 1890's-1910 has very few "top" fighters they are great in achievement Fitzsimmons middle-heavy etc but probably short on HTH ability.
Who are these "most" and how much research have they done studying that era?
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:36 AM   #54
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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A good amount of amateur fights also brings in a lot of experience.
.
this is somewere old timers had an advantage, today am and pro boxing use such different rulesets. when i go to my friends am fights i can never give any insight into it, beyond 'he's the home fighter', which aint much help

edit. thats the only modern am boxing i see
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:40 AM   #55
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True burt but there were no amateurs either so you started out pro.
H, NOT TRUE..In the 1940s {my era growing up] there were a tremendous amount of amateurs and GOLDEN GLOVE bouts...For example in the GG in MSG they HAD to have THREE rings operating at the same time. Ray Robinson was a product of the Golden Gloves bouts in NY...My dad in the early 1920s boxed in smokers and other non pro bouts...He would tell me in NYC on every block it seemed there was a pro boxer...Tough times breed tough men. In the GG all of us boxed with NO headgear, mini mouthpieces.
Today I cannot watch the amateurs in the Olympic bouts with the headgear, the referee admonishing boxers for the slightest "infraction", not allowing infighting etc...A different game today than in the old days...In the 1940s to get a main event bout at MSG, you needed 45 or so bouts,and more to headline a card...There were of course only 8 weight classes, and fighters learned to cope with boxing guys weighing in some cases 10 pounds o r more...And in NYC area for example there was at least ONE
pro card EVERY NIGHT of the week except Sunday...Fighting so often boxers learned from their experiences and hardened them....To prove my point I can cite a list of the top fighters of the 40s in each class, and compare them to todays top fighters...To be the best of a rich pool of fighters ,makes the greater fighter than a much smaller pool...
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:55 AM   #56
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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Dude this dude is Senile youll have to excuse him..Im pretty sure he doesnt even know where he is
S, SO BRAVE OF YOU TO CALL ME SENILE...SO BRAVE ,AND YOU EXUDE SO MUCH CLASS...I,and my contemporaries fought in the second World War for the likes of you who don't have no respect for seior guys like myself...I don't know how old you are, but someday i hope you are not criticized
because you are a survivor as I am...I hope your parents or grandparents
are called "senile"...
You sir are a vile man,and what I have experienced in boxing and STILL RETAIN, you will jnever duplicate...
P.S. This is what ESB is becoming ?
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:59 AM   #57
burt bienstock
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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S, SO BRAVE OF YOU TO CALL ME SENILE...SO BRAVE ,AND YOU EXUDE SO MUCH CLASS...I,and my contemporaries fought in the second World War for the likes of you who don't have no respect for seior guys like myself...I don't know how old you are, but someday i hope you are not criticized
because you are a survivor as I am...I hope your parents or grandparents
are called "senile"...
You sir are a vile man,and what I have experienced in boxing and STILL RETAIN, you will jnever duplicate...
P.S. This is what ESB is becoming ?
I meant I hope your parents or Grandparents are NOT ever called senile as you tar me...You exude clASS !
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:08 AM   #58
burt bienstock
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

[quote=young griffo;13946855]
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Originally Posted by louis3749 View Post
Sorry Louis3749 wasn't aimed at you at all mate. The quotations are all messed up for some reason.

The other guy was calling Burt Bienstock senile and then giving you props for saying what amounted to the same thing, so I was having a go at him for being a prick to an older gent like Burt even though in essence he agreed with him the same as he did with you.

For what it's worth I agree 100% with your post too
YG, thank you for your kind support...I can take criticism about boxing
opinions but to be called "senile" by some creatin called Southpaw reaches a new low...Life is hard enough to survive ,but to called senile if you do dodge death is not a pleasant feeling...So yg,thanks for your support...
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:21 AM   #59
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

TheSouthpaw is a troll Burt, and hated by everyone. You needn't worry.

Last edited by Flea Man; 10-08-2012 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:27 AM   #60
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
S, SO BRAVE OF YOU TO CALL ME SENILE...SO BRAVE ,AND YOU EXUDE SO MUCH CLASS...I,and my contemporaries fought in the second World War for the likes of you who don't have no respect for seior guys like myself...I don't know how old you are, but someday i hope you are not criticized
because you are a survivor as I am...I hope your parents or grandparents
are called "senile"...
You sir are a vile man,and what I have experienced in boxing and STILL RETAIN, you will jnever duplicate...
P.S. This is what ESB is becoming ?
I hope he got banned out of this place for this Burt. I'm personally really glad to have you on this website, able to provide us with some hindsights on how it was back then.
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