70's heavies v 90's heavies ? - Page 2

mr. magoo · 10-08-2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus

Terry Daniels, Ron Stander, Jose Roman, Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Chuck Wepner,Jean-Pierre Coopman, Bob Foster, a 37 year old Patterson all competed for title belts in the 70's.

Did any of 'em win it?

Seamus · 10-08-2012, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Did any of 'em win it?

Yes, Leon Spinks did.

mr. magoo · 10-08-2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus

Yes, Leon Spinks did.

Didn't see that name on your list.

But i'll ask a few questions of him as well.

Was he a 45 year old man who's career was divided by 10 years of inactivity and facing a champion who was in the peak of his prime?

Seamus · 10-08-2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Didn't see that name on your list.

But i'll ask a few questions of him as well.

Was he a 45 year old man who's career was divided by 10 years of inactivity and facing a champion who was in the peak of his prime?

No, he was not an experienced ex-Champ with one of the biggest punches in the history of the division which he still possessed facing a fighter who refused to do anything but stand right in front of him. He was a green, scrawny, party animal who outworked a bloated, faded champion who for the decade was at his physical peak on January 1, 1970 but used his guile and ridiculous chin to navigate between very good but flawed fighters the previous 8 years.

mr. magoo · 10-08-2012, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus

No, he was not an experienced ex-Champ with one of the biggest punches in the history of the division which he still possessed facing a fighter who refused to do anything but stand right in front of him. He was a green, scrawny, party animal who outworked a bloated, faded champion who for the decade was at his physical peak on January 1, 1970 but used his guile and ridiculous chin to navigate between very good but flawed fighters the previous 8 years.

This sounds like excuse making rather than paying someone their rightful dues. But what the hell. Run with it.

Seamus · 10-08-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

This sounds like excuse making rather than paying someone their rightful dues. But what the hell. Run with it.

I think it is all rather factual. If Moorer had followed his corner's advice and moved, he would have whitewashed Foreman.

And I am not going to degrade the 70's for it's heavies. There is an argument for it being the best but I think there is a better argument for it being the second best. Two factors here... I think by "70's" people really mean 1968-1975... or should mean that. There you get the prime Frazier years, along with performances by some very good secondary fighters. And the Cult of Ali did much to inflate that era, with Cosell's miserable calling and ballyhoo and Ali's transcendence as a Pop Culture Icon. We are indoctrinated that the Thrilla in Manilla was a great display of talent and skill when it was really two faded former greats putting up one last, but somewhat pathetic, stand.

Again, the 70's were great, but maybe a tad overrated.

luke · 10-08-2012, 03:06 PM

70's were better, but 90's was way to deep, guys like bert cooper, oliver mccall and so on were classed as journymen.

mr. magoo · 10-08-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus

I think it is all rather factual. If Moorer had followed his corner's advice and moved, he would have whitewashed Foreman.

But the point is, he didn't and he got knocked out.. Lot's of fights are won and lost based on poor decision making or bad executions. Its part of boxing. And frankly it would be the same as claiming that if Muhammad Ali had taken Leon Spinks more seriously ( the way he did in the rematch ) he never would have lost to him in the first place.. Of course in hindsite this proved to be factual as well, because afterall, Ali DID win the rematch. But excuses can also contain facts.

devon · 10-08-2012, 04:11 PM

Ali,Holmes,Foreman, and Frazier are all undoubtably top 10 heavyweights. One could make the claim that Lewis is the only heavyweight from the 90's to be in the top 10.

Seamus · 10-08-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devon

Ali,Holmes,Foreman, and Frazier are all undoubtably top 10 heavyweights. One could make the claim that Lewis is the only heavyweight from the 90's to be in the top 10.

I don't have Frazier in my top 10 and Holmes did the majority of his championship work in the 80's. So that dilutes your argument a bit, at least for me. I would rank Holyfield, Lewis and Tyson (who again belonged more to the 80's) over Frazier.

Yes, it's an argument that can swing both ways but I believe these two eras are greatest contenders for the crown.

devon · 10-08-2012, 09:44 PM

Bump

hernanday · 10-09-2012, 12:39 AM

Its a close one, had Tyson stayed prime, and holmes stayed prime, along with foreman and Lewis, then we'd have lots of super fights throw in holyfields, sanders, the k brothers, Tua and Bowe, all of them fighting at top game fighting each other,and you may have the best era of heavyweight boxing, but instead lots of those guys got old, got demotivated, retire, lost passion etc. Hence I gave it to 70s because the idealsituation occured. Guys from the 60s were still around fighting well, they all fought each other, and stayed in good shape. Sure Lewis beat Tyson, but I will always wonder if Lewis can beat that same Tyson I saw at the olympics duck under punches and throw lighting fast punches.

Seamus · 10-09-2012, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hernanday

Its a close one, had Tyson stayed prime, and holmes stayed prime, along with foreman and Lewis, then we'd have lots of super fights throw in holyfields, sanders, the k brothers, Tua and Bowe, all of them fighting at top game fighting each other,and you may have the best era of heavyweight boxing, but instead lots of those guys got old, got demotivated, retire, lost passion etc. Hence I gave it to 70s because the idealsituation occured. Guys from the 60s were still around fighting well, they all fought each other, and stayed in good shape. Sure Lewis beat Tyson, but I will always wonder if Lewis can beat that same Tyson I saw at the olympics duck under punches and throw lighting fast punches.

Nice argument but what Tyson did you see at the Olympics?

Webbiano · 10-09-2012, 09:22 AM

70s ATG Rankings

2. Ali
4. Foreman
7. Frazier
8. Larry Holmes
25. Ken Norton

90s ATG Rankings
5. Lewis
6. Holyfield
10. Tyson
12. Wladimir Klitschko (assuming he doesn't lose till retirement)
20. Riddick Bowe
21. Vitali Klitschko

This is taken from my most updated list. It shows what many have been saying all thread: although the 70s had the select greater fighters, the 90s depth is greater. If you want to try and exclude the K bros as there best work came in the 00s then you must consider completely excluding Larry Holmes and too an extent Frazier, as he was at his best in the late 60s. Foreman is also an interesting one. Although he had the better career in the 70s I'd only have him around 15, however being the oldest heavyweight champion moves him well up my list and IMO is in the too 5 achievements in boxing history.

Stevie G · 10-09-2012, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devon

Ali,Holmes,Foreman, and Frazier are all undoubtably top 10 heavyweights. One could make the claim that Lewis is the only heavyweight from the 90's to be in the top 10.

That's one of the deciders in my reckoning.

Those seventies ones you name are definitley in my own top 10.
And Lewis is the only nineties one I'd definitely include in it. Holyfield moves in and out of my list.

View Poll Results: 70's heavies v 90's heavies ?
70's	26	53.06%
90's	23	46.94%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

10-08-2012, 03:06 PM	#22
luke Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,152 vCash: 500	Re: 70's heavies v 90's heavies ? 70's were better, but 90's was way to deep, guys like bert cooper, oliver mccall and so on were classed as journymen.
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10-08-2012, 04:11 PM	#24
devon *erator ESB Senior Member** Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,253 vCash: 248	Re: 70's heavies v 90's heavies ? Ali,Holmes,Foreman, and Frazier are all undoubtably top 10 heavyweights. One could make the claim that Lewis is the only heavyweight from the 90's to be in the top 10.
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10-08-2012, 09:44 PM	#26
devon *erator ESB Senior Member** Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,253 vCash: 248	Re: 70's heavies v 90's heavies ? Bump
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10-09-2012, 12:39 AM	#27
hernanday Gatekeeper ESB Full Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 312 vCash: 500	Re: 70's heavies v 90's heavies ? Its a close one, had Tyson stayed prime, and holmes stayed prime, along with foreman and Lewis, then we'd have lots of super fights throw in holyfields, sanders, the k brothers, Tua and Bowe, all of them fighting at top game fighting each other,and you may have the best era of heavyweight boxing, but instead lots of those guys got old, got demotivated, retire, lost passion etc. Hence I gave it to 70s because the idealsituation occured. Guys from the 60s were still around fighting well, they all fought each other, and stayed in good shape. Sure Lewis beat Tyson, but I will always wonder if Lewis can beat that same Tyson I saw at the olympics duck under punches and throw lighting fast punches.
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10-09-2012, 09:22 AM	#29
Webbiano Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: England Posts: 3,037 vCash: 500	Re: 70's heavies v 90's heavies ? 70s ATG Rankings 2. Ali 4. Foreman 7. Frazier 8. Larry Holmes 25. Ken Norton 90s ATG Rankings 5. Lewis 6. Holyfield 10. Tyson 12. Wladimir Klitschko (assuming he doesn't lose till retirement) 20. Riddick Bowe 21. Vitali Klitschko This is taken from my most updated list. It shows what many have been saying all thread: although the 70s had the select greater fighters, the 90s depth is greater. If you want to try and exclude the K bros as there best work came in the 00s then you must consider completely excluding Larry Holmes and too an extent Frazier, as he was at his best in the late 60s. Foreman is also an interesting one. Although he had the better career in the 70s I'd only have him around 15, however being the oldest heavyweight champion moves him well up my list and IMO is in the too 5 achievements in boxing history.
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