Kid Gavilan

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Quick Cash

I believe he is at a size disadvantage against most conventionally acknowledged welterweights, but that is not to say his talent won't shine through regardless. He is well among the very best of the bunch, but his exact placing depends on whom you include in your list.

Nah, Gavilan has as many quality scalps at middleweight as he has at 147. Big punchers like Lausse as well.

[McGrain]

I think that you could argue, quite happily, that KG and Sugar Ray settled, once and for all, who the best welter of all time is when they fought twice. Leonard and maybe Burley would have something to say about that, perhaps, but I think the argument would be a solid one.

[Quick Cash]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Nah, Gavilan has as many quality scalps at middleweight as he has at 147. Big punchers like Lausse as well.

He enjoyed quite a bit of success against larger foes, yes. He was, however, rather thin in the arms and legs, which was the point I was trying to make. He doesn't favorably compare to Leonard or Robinson in terms of physical size- certainly not to the more modern De La Hoya.

Though their body types may vary, in his prime I'd say he carried the same overall bulk as a Curry, Napoles, Basilio, or Pacquiao.

Obviously, talent is no question, but there's also no denying he was an under-sized welterweight. At his level, it's true it doesn't play as big a role. But a stickler would point out that that may hurt or hinder his chances nonetheless, especially against the upper echelon of what amounts to a higher weight classification (let that not be confused with a certain Oscar).

These days, I rate him along with the guys I mentioned in the second paragraph. It's my own weird idiosyncrasy. Of course you've still got a competitive list of names if you lump them all together, but it isn't, strictly speaking, fair.

[Flea Man]

I know what you're saying but Gavilan was very strong he was, like Curry, long in the arms.

De La Hoya was not stronger IMO. I see you didn't want to include him quite in the upper echelon, but just to touch on him anyway, Gavilan's gas tank is so superior to his.

I do agree but a lot of modern 'welterweights' would not be in Gavilan's time (goes for any weight really with only a few exceptions)

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Lester1583

I completely trust Flea's opinion.

He said El Feo is the 2nd greatest welter of all time.

Here's his list in case you missed it, HoI:

Are you sure that isn't your list?

I trust Flea too, at everything 126 and below. There's no combination of coke and weed he could be under the influence of to poop out something that horrendous.

[Flea Man]

I promise I didn't do it.

And trust me all the way to heavy man, don't worry, everything "will be okay"

[Garrus]

I chose no cause modern nutrition.

Bertoe gets to him.

Broner clubs him to death with his brush.

[lufcrazy]

I have him number 4. Same "tier" of greatness as numbers 2-7, then based on my h2h estimation I place Leonard and Napoles above him. I did rank him above Armstrong though, not sure if I still agree with that or not :

[Flea Man]

Napoles' skin let's him down in H2H comparisons. Big enough factor for him to lose to lesser talents like Backus.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Garrus

I chose no cause modern nutrition.

Bertoe gets to him.

Broner clubs him to death with his brush.

[Lester1583]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Are you sure that isn't your list?

I've never heard of half of these guys.

Although Flea is clearly underrating Kelly Brook.

[Flea Man]

She has a better, ahem, one-two than Kell

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Napoles' skin let's him down in H2H comparisons. Big enough factor for him to lose to lesser talents like Backus.

Particularly against Gavilan, I'd think.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Particularly against Gavilan, I'd think.

I agree 100%. Gavilan is the epitome of a slashing and choppy puncher.

EDIT: Let's not forget how amazing Mantequilla was. He's much smaller than most of the guys mentioned and not really a natural welter, even in his day. And he still had the balls to fuck with Monzon. A Monzon that fleed the post fight drug test

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

I agree 100%. Gavilan is the epitome of a slashing and choppy puncher.

EDIT: Let's not forget how amazing Mantequilla was. He's much smaller than most of the guys mentioned and not really a natural welter, even in his day. And he still had the balls to fuck with Monzon. A Monzon that fleed the post fight drug test

Definitely, he's still amongst the top five as well.