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View Poll Results: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?
Impressive 17 24.29%
Overrated 53 75.71%
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:57 AM   #46
Nonito Smoak
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by trakam View Post
Sugar Ray Robinson lost 19 times Sven Ottke didn't lose any, ask your neighbour which one of those two boxers he has heard of. Overrated.
You just made the case for impressive.

If it is so not a big deal, why are Lopez, Marciano, and Calzaghe the greatest undefeated fighters ever while many people wouldn't include any of them amongst the 50 greatest fighters ever? ("many people" is not me)

Also, Robinson was then and is renowned now as the GOAT most for his incredible, seemingly invincible 128-1-2 run. It's not undefeated, but damn close with the only loss being to an elite MW he redeemed five times. Most people don't rank him as the best MW ever for a reason; because most people don't think he was. Now had he gone undefeated as a MW against the same opposition he fought? There would be no doubts.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:42 AM   #47
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by bballchump11 View Post

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Great fighter, but the strawweight division was a waste of his talents, had he moved up earlier and fought Carbajal or Gonzalez even taking a loss in doing so imo his legacy could've been greater. A shame... he clearly had the size and the skill to do so.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:34 AM   #48
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by trakam View Post
Sugar Ray Robinson lost 19 times Sven Ottke didn't lose any, ask your neighbour which one of those two boxers he has heard of. Overrated.
One good thing Marciano certainly never ducked anyone, he just happened to come along too late to face a prime Joe Louis and too early to face Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston or Muhammad Ali. Overrated.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:41 PM   #49
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by hofbrau View Post
An undefeated record in boxing is undoubtedly impressive ... but it can also be misleading.*Rocky Marciano*and*Joe Calzaghe*are two of the few modern fighters who retired having won every single fight of their professional career. Both are Hall of Famers with wins over Hall of Fame caliber fighters on their resumes ... but both Marciano and Calzaghe scored their biggest wins against stars who were well past their primes.
Records can be deceiving. Example. Calzaghe was mentioned, yet Andre Ward has a better 168 pound resume than Calzaghe did, and in fewer years with much of his career still ahead of him. An undefeated record doesn't mean ****, if you haven't challenged yourself and fought anybody at their best. Sure Marciano showed that he could beat up on old men, and also get put on his **** by old men. Calzaghe also showed us that he could get put on his **** by old men, and a bum also.

Anyway, The 0 means something, if the quality opposition is there to go with it.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:41 PM   #50
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

depends who you fought, obviously.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:05 PM   #51
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by The Akbar One View Post

Anyway, The 0 means something, if the quality opposition is there to go with it.
Agreed. I can't think of 1 undefeated fighter whose resume isn't widely considered to have holes in it. From Marciano, to Mayweather to David Rodriguez.

Especially in modern times, the 0 seems to be more a product of design, playing it safe, and careful matchmaking than dominance. IMO.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:25 PM   #52
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by Nonito Smoak View Post
You just made the case for impressive.

If it is so not a big deal, why are Lopez, Marciano, and Calzaghe the greatest undefeated fighters ever while many people wouldn't include any of them amongst the 50 greatest fighters ever? ("many people" is not me)

Also, Robinson was then and is renowned now as the GOAT most for his incredible, seemingly invincible 128-1-2 run. It's not undefeated, but damn close with the only loss being to an elite MW he redeemed five times. Most people don't rank him as the best MW ever for a reason; because most people don't think he was. Now had he gone undefeated as a MW against the same opposition he fought? There would be no doubts.
Off course Calzaghe is not in top 50 fighters of all times, anyone who puts him in top 50 is crazy!!!
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:32 PM   #53
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by bballchump11 View Post
of course it's impressive. You'd think it was too if you didn't hate Floyd.

SRL is a great fighter, but imagine if he never lost to Duran and retired after the third Duran dight and never came back to lose to Norris and Camacho.
He would have retired 37-0-1 with wins over the same people.

Is that more impressive or not?
if floyd has ray leonards opposition, he would be seen greater even if he lost a couple of times than what his current resume looks like.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:35 PM   #54
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by hofbrau View Post
An undefeated record in boxing is undoubtedly impressive ... but it can also be misleading.*Rocky Marciano*and*Joe Calzaghe*are two of the few modern fighters who retired having won every single fight of their professional career. Both are Hall of Famers with wins over Hall of Fame caliber fighters on their resumes ... but both Marciano and Calzaghe scored their biggest wins against stars who were well past their primes.
I think with anything it should be considered "case by case". Sometimes undefeated records get more attention than the actual substance of the resume. Other times an undefeated record reflects both depth and substance. Case by case...
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:41 PM   #55
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by des3995 View Post
Agreed. I can't think of 1 undefeated fighter whose resume isn't widely considered to have holes in it. From Marciano, to Mayweather to David Rodriguez.

Especially in modern times, the 0 seems to be more a product of design, playing it safe, and careful matchmaking than dominance. IMO.
Yup. Mayweather's resume once he moved up past 135 leaves a lot to be desired when you look at the opposition that is/was available to him at 140, 147, and 154. He never fought the best available opposition.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:51 PM   #56
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by puga_ni_nana View Post
if floyd has ray leonards opposition, he would be seen greater even if he lost a couple of times than what his current resume looks like.
yeah and if Floyd had Ray's opposition and went undefeated, it'd been seen as more impressive
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:56 PM   #57
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

Beyond overrated. Someone with a decent to long career of opponents with an undefeated record is 99% of the time a product of cherrypicking.


The only exception I can think of is Andre Ward. And a hell of an exception he is. Future top 15 ATG imo if he doesnt run out of opponents.
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:35 PM   #58
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by bballchump11 View Post
yeah and if Floyd had Ray's opposition and went undefeated, it'd been seen as more impressive
so it's really goes down to your opposition. you can have your "0" but it doesn't matter as much as when you have fought the best and lost a couple of times.
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:36 PM   #59
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by puga_ni_nana View Post
so it's really goes down to your opposition. you can have your "0" but it doesn't matter as much as when you have fought the best and lost a couple of times.
yeah but how about you actually beat that opposition though. Nobody is calling Corley or Augustus hall of famers
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:41 PM   #60
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Default Re: Are Undefeated Reords in Boxing Impressive or Overrated?

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Originally Posted by bballchump11 View Post
yeah but how about you actually beat that opposition though. Nobody is calling Corley or Augustus hall of famers
good point. if it was based soley on who you fought, Ricardo Mayorga would be a top 100 ATG
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