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Old 10-09-2012, 07:56 AM   #121
McGrain
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

Wlad is great now. I'd absolutely consider comparisons with Dempsey in terms of ATG status valid. Where you have them relative to each other is just going to depend upon how you personally feel about x y and z though. Let's be honest, once you're out of the top 2 it's pretty soft, isn't it?

People are just going to have to start dealing with Wlad appearing on top 10 HW lists. Because once he's been retired a year (presuming he doesn't suffer another horrible KO loss) I guarantee you will be seeing an awful lot of him there.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:58 PM   #122
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I reckon they're on 'roids though. What you thin Magna? I know you've trained with Wlad and I hope I'm not putting you in a bad position but my drawing on any sessions you had with Klitschko would you say anything else points to that?
No way these guys are on steroids.

The K bros work harder, more consistently, and with more dedication, then ANY fighter I have EVER seen, bar Evander Holyfield, and I would easily say they work SMARTER than Evander.

These guys are also gentleman. They define integrity. They treat everybody around them with respect, and view themselves as sportsman. Doctors in sports medicine, who have invested brilliantly, own large parts of their home region, and are adored public figures. I've never seen a needle, and I wasn't with them privately day in and day out, but if I have met or seen ANY fighter I would refuse to believe uses steroids, it'd be the guys in the gym 8 hours a day, busting their asses with the most expensive looking machinery I've ever seen.

I know what it took to get as big and muscular as I am, and it's totally doable without steroids, which would have been a massive health risk for me. You just have to know how, and you have to execute.

I'll give the K Bros more credit as men then any boxer I've ever met. They just so happen to be among the 3 or 4 best fighters I've ever shared a ring with.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:04 PM   #123
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

I appreciate the response and I mean this in the least snipey way possible (will sound that way in print but hopefully you see where I'm coming from) but what about Vitali's mistake back in the day? Put it down to the follys of youth and lack of guidance?
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:16 PM   #124
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I appreciate the response and I mean this in the least snipey way possible (will sound that way in print but hopefully you see where I'm coming from) but what about Vitali's mistake back in the day? Put it down to the follys of youth and lack of guidance?
To a degree. It's also a sign of the times. Think of the program he was part of. Rocky 4 was a fun romp, but it was also pretty tongue in cheek; That stuff was absolutely regular. IF he intentionally juiced to gain a leg up, so did every other former Soviet amateur before they cleaned the program up in '99. If he says he did it because of user error to fix an injury, I believe him, because steroid users in boxing are attempting to attain something, in my experience. A strength edge, a conditioning edge, something, and Vitali is a physical specimen. He's massive, he's brutish. He doesn't really need them. He was born with the right genes.

Young fighters make dumb mistakes. If a single one stains an entire career, every career ever is stained by something. There comes a time, and its hard, I know, where we've gotta let men be men, gotta let them be flawed, and have to stay objective.

If I was remembered for my worst loss, people would call me a no heart, no talent, glass jawed bum. My worst mistake outside the ring, a disloyal, money grubbing, selfish bitch. And I don't think thats fair.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:21 PM   #125
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You´ve got some right and wrong points. Yes, Dempsey beats Wlad but not because of his lack of skill, speed or anything but because, as you pointed out Demspey knows how to get past his jab, would be more aggressive than anyone Wlad fought and put him into "panic mode" which will end in him getting knocked out.

Wlad is very skilled albeit limited in what skills he uses. His simple style serves him very, very well and the majority of hws in history would not get by his jab, close enough to hurt him and even less would be able to get off before getting clinched or able to avoid clinching alltogether. I wouldn´t pick more than about a handfull to beat him. Dempsey is one with a very, very good chance due to his style advantage, but Wlad´s combination of size, speed (and he is quite fast, look at his fight with "Fast" Eddie Chambers, he didn´t look any slower), power and skill makes me quite unsure about that one.
I agree that'd one'd have to likely be quiet skilled by modern standards to beat vlad. because all guys tofay want to do is go throw 1 punch and ko a guy.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:50 PM   #126
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No way these guys are on steroids.

The K bros work harder, more consistently, and with more dedication, then ANY fighter I have EVER seen, bar Evander Holyfield, and I would easily say they work SMARTER than Evander.

These guys are also gentleman. They define integrity. They treat everybody around them with respect, and view themselves as sportsman. Doctors in sports medicine, who have invested brilliantly, own large parts of their home region, and are adored public figures. I've never seen a needle, and I wasn't with them privately day in and day out, but if I have met or seen ANY fighter I would refuse to believe uses steroids, it'd be the guys in the gym 8 hours a day, busting their asses with the most expensive looking machinery I've ever seen.

I know what it took to get as big and muscular as I am, and it's totally doable without steroids, which would have been a massive health risk for me. You just have to know how, and you have to execute.

I'll give the K Bros more credit as men then any boxer I've ever met. They just so happen to be among the 3 or 4 best fighters I've ever shared a ring with.
How would you compare them?
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:52 PM   #127
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How would you compare them?
Apparently this is one of my most controversial boxing opinions, but Wlad would do Vitali dirty.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:58 PM   #128
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Apparently this is one of my most controversial boxing opinions, but Wlad would do Vitali dirty.
You mean he'd beat him comfortably or by using dirty methods? The former, no?

I personally see where you're coming from. Wlad is the more skilled boxer in my book, also more powerful and faster. Don't think anybody ever has an easy evening with Vitaly, but my money would be on Wlad if they met and both gave it their all.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:00 PM   #129
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One also has to remember that the advantages from doping are not lost. Ie. use roids to gain muscle mass, stop using roids doesn't mean muscles go away. As well naturally testosterone and roids level will fall if your working very hard, so it is possible to still dope, past the test, especially when the klitschkos refuse olympic style drug testing and use to live out in an area close to the notorious balco drug lab in california. Can't prove positive they are doping, you'd need another admission or a police sting, but they have a history of it,they are old men fighting better than when they were young, they lived close to a notorious drug lab in the US that gave undetected PED to numerous athletes from all over the nation, and he mysteriously relocates to Germany after they crack down on the lab, where several major notorious drug labs have been busted in his town like the IP drug lab that supplies ped all over europe through spain (ie. drugs sent to spain and from spain to wherever you order because they have more lax steroid laws)

Klitschko also refused to do random drug test to fight potvenkin, but when pacquiao said the same thing everyone assumed he must be doping. When all those baseball players don't want to do dope test, they are assumed guilty. Then Vlad makes suspect statements by saying things like dope test would do no good for boxing... really. I guess dope test would have done no good when your brother was at the olympics too. ****ing cheater, taking steroids for a leg injury, yeah sure, and we know steroids gives kidney stones.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:05 PM   #130
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

Where I come, its innocent until proven guilty.

I have a passion for the law, and I believe in that with all my heart. I refuse to speculate and offer conspiracy theories against friends of mine who have shown me they are honest, gracious men of much character.

But then, I was actually a high level prizefighter, not just a fan on a forum, and we have a brotherhood at that level that might make me highly biased.

And yes, Bokaj, Vitali is rather slow, pulls away from shots with his hands down, and gets hit rather often, even given his massive advantages. His awkwardness, his power, and his incredible strength are super tough to solve, would give any fighter hell, but he doesn't hit hard enough to trigger Wlad's panic attacks(If Wlad even does panic when in trouble anymore, we don't know), and he'd be eating his younger brothers straight punches like candy.

People just say he'd "Pressure Wlad and walk him down and fight him because he has the harder chin and he's tougher!" Wlad would want him to do that. Coming forward, onto the jab? Plays completely into his hands. Walking through punches to brawl and break a guy down, Rocky Marciano style, isn't all that easy. It's incredibly difficult, and more often then not, you take too many punches to accomplish your ultimate goal. Younger K is an awful style match up for bigger K.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:20 PM   #131
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

Magna, appreciate yor responses, thanks.

As for a matchup between the two, I've got Wlad too.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:21 PM   #132
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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And yes, Bokaj, Vitali is rather slow, pulls away from shots with his hands down, and gets hit rather often, even given his massive advantages. His awkwardness, his power, and his incredible strength are super tough to solve, would give any fighter hell, but he doesn't hit hard enough to trigger Wlad's panic attacks(If Wlad even does panic when in trouble anymore, we don't know), and he'd be eating his younger brothers straight punches like candy.

People just say he'd "Pressure Wlad and walk him down and fight him because he has the harder chin and he's tougher!" Wlad would want him to do that. Coming forward, onto the jab? Plays completely into his hands. Walking through punches to brawl and break a guy down, Rocky Marciano style, isn't all that easy. It's incredibly difficult, and more often then not, you take too many punches to accomplish your ultimate goal. Younger K is an awful style match up for bigger K.
This sounds quite reasonable to me at least.
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:32 PM   #133
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Having been in the ring with the Klitschko bros and many of the best of the 90's, Wladimir is easily in their class. Easily. The best favor anybody could do a Klitschko is take them lightly.

Massive mountains of muscle with incredible range, educated jabs, boa constrictor strength, and in Wlad's case, concussive power? Yeah. Easy night. I had this boxing thing all wrong, those guys were pussies! Few short shots in between their straight punches, and thy'd have just fallen down. Man oh man. Wasted opportunities, I tell ya.
Dude, what's your name! I'm dying to know who you are! Even you were just a HW contender, that's still bloody amazing, considering how 99% of amateurs totally fall short in the pros! Also which one are you in your avatar? The guy on the left, or on the right?
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:44 PM   #134
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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In some cases this is true, but when I watch joe louis and then I watch pretty much any challenger in the heavyweight division, it is almost laughabley bad, how terrible these guys are. all tomatoes, beer bellies, no discipline. Can't blame the Klitschkos the division is weak, but the best up and comer right now is seth mitchell who is a joke compared to up and comers of the ol times.

The only active boxer I think will even be though of as great 10 years from now is Pacquiao and possibly gamboa depending on how he does going forward, and Pac is just tough as hell, had he been in an era of great trainers, he could be much better.

Even SRL points out how his fight against duran was what made him great, it made him a better boxer. Who is the great technician of today, a FM, a guy who buys out his competitors? Mayweather senior doesn't even count from the 80s, like father like son, if mayweather jr was there in the 80's he'd never make money because he'd just get ignored and if he fought anyone of talent he'd just get butt hole torn up. Does he think Duran or hearns is going to clinch him like mosely after they stun him, no they are going.

You understand that canelo and mayweather would never be considered great in a strong era because they'd dodge all the top fighters. Charles Burley fought buys who weighed 70 pounds more than him and I am suppose to believe mayweather who won't even fight a guy who weighs 7 pounds more than him is the greatest technical boxer because he crushes tomatoes.
what makes you say that.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:54 PM   #135
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

When Vladimir Klitschko fought, I believe his name was Jackson ( Phil ? ), the huge ugly zits on Klitschko's back gave me an idea about his use of PEDs.
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