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Old 10-09-2012, 02:12 PM   #31
hernanday
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

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And boxing is the poorer sport for it in my opinion. Today we get the likes of Haye blaming a loss on a broken toe...

Surely Marciano should get credit for these wins?
Of course he does get credit, but u have people here thinking he is invincible. he wasn't beating Liston, because best case scenario liston knocks him down 8,9, 10 times in a fight and it ends by stoppage. He wasn't moving out the way of liston's punches, which means he was eating them. 180 pound guy eating 215 pound mass of muscle punches = one knocked out 180 pound guy. I don'teven think any boxer could brawl toe to toe with liston unless they had equal power and more speed ie mike tyson.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:49 PM   #32
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

Hernanday,

Ingemar Johansson, Tom Mcneeley, Roy Harris, Pete Radamacher...what do all of these men have in common? All of them knocked floyd patterson down. Johnasson knocked patterson out. Can you imagine what a stronger, much better puncher in Marciano would do to floyd?

Marciano did not throw wide shots either, he threw short punches(especially in his latter career) and was quite crafty in his crouch. He also threw non stop punches and had the durability to take pattersons best punch in order to land his own.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:54 PM   #33
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

I can see the meek, weak chinned, small Patterson of this era surviving a Marciano with something substantial left in the tank.

The Patterson of the Quarry fight, though, for example, has a helluva chance.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:59 PM   #34
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

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I can see the meek, weak chinned, small Patterson of this era surviving a Marciano with something substantial left in the tank.

The Patterson of the Quarry fight, though, for example, has a helluva chance.
Magna, do you mean you "can't see the meek..."etc?
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:42 PM   #35
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

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This is imho, among the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on ESB Classic. Patterson, a man who as world champion gets knocked down by a pro debutant (among several other KDs suffered) and you don't think that Marciano has the power to ko Floyd? Seriously?
You must be on a wind-up...
Rademacher was, what 28 or so? Floyd was 22. Outweighed by a lot. He had a lot more boxing experience at that time. Don't overplay the ametetur turned pro over-hype here! The KD that so many Floyd haters mention was a flash off-balance shot. Patterson was smiling when he rose. Criticize Floyd all you want but don't trowel out his 'underrated' effort against Pete, who he, quite simply, laid an ass-whoopin' on...
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:58 PM   #36
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

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Rademacher was, what 28 or so? Floyd was 22. Outweighed by a lot. He had a lot more boxing experience at that time. Don't overplay the ametetur turned pro over-hype here! The KD that so many Floyd haters mention was a flash off-balance shot. Patterson was smiling when he rose. Criticize Floyd all you want but don't trowel out his 'underrated' effort against Pete, who he, quite simply, laid an ass-whoopin' on...
Why was Patterson fighting Rademacher to begin with?

Why not Machen or Folley, the top two contenders? They were around the top for years while Patterson was "champion" and never did get a title shot.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:01 PM   #37
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

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Magna, do you mean you "can't see the meek..."etc?
Yeah...Can't. Damn big ass fingers on this little ass Macintosh keyboard. I make typos so often I just say **** it to reading over.

Floyd Patterson hadn't developed the attitude to beat a Rocky Marciano yet.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:35 AM   #38
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

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Hernanday,

Ingemar Johansson, Tom Mcneeley, Roy Harris, Pete Radamacher...what do all of these men have in common? All of them knocked floyd patterson down. Johnasson knocked patterson out. Can you imagine what a stronger, much better puncher in Marciano would do to floyd?

Marciano did not throw wide shots either, he threw short punches(especially in his latter career) and was quite crafty in his crouch. He also threw non stop punches and had the durability to take pattersons best punch in order to land his own.
Marciano is not stronger than Ingo, ingo weighed almost 30 pounds more, was younger hit harder, it was a rockman shot, he got lucky, and lost the next too. To be honest, Marciano would be less likely to take such a shot for the obvious fact that he was a better boxer. A better boxer would not have taken the same kind of wild shot, that if missed could easily be koed. Its why rackman could knockout lewis but tyson couldn't, we'd all agree tyson is better than rackman. But it is because he is better he is not dumb enough to take such a ridiculously wild punch that landed luckly and splt lewis guard.

Patterson knocked out Johanson and won the series.

Marciano throws wide shots, from down low, its where his power comes from. I agree his crouch was crafty, in fact when he threw out the famous suzie q, it was a hella wide punch right hand, punch heard around the world, wide punch. He did throw alot, and had a craft unorthodox defense.

I am not debating if Marciano is great, it is obvious he is. I am saying he could not have beaten patterson when they met up in the mid/late 50s. Marciano was 33, he had taken several beatens himself, his durability was in decline, patterson had destroyed his last 10/11 opponents with early to mid range knockouts. He had a punch called a gazelle punch which was almost custom made for beating marciano, it was a leaping crouching left hook from down low, that would have knocked out marciano cold. He won a title elminator tournament to become champ after marciano retired, he was ranked the number 1 light heavy and #5 heavy when marciano retired, he was too fast, too good endurance, too strong too durable, marciano wasn't big enough (marciano was shorter and weighed only 8 pounds more). Marciano was all the willing to make a comeback when Ingo won the championship because it was assumed Floyd could not win back the title (no one had done it before at that point) but when he did all of a sudden marciano decided he will stay in retirement. I liken it to when Foreman said if K2 beats Lewis, he'd come back. Knows he can't beat lewis, believes he can beat klitschko so he would come back to fight the guy he thinks he can beat.

Marciano had never had to fight an opponent like Patterson who was better than him in every dimension, stronger, faster, more durable, better endurance, better ko power, more elusive and who would not tire in a 15 round bout because he is in his 20s not 40s. At that point patterson was certainly a better boxer puncher than the 38 year old who out boxxed marciano for 13 rounds.

Patterson being knocked down was more a function of him missing extremely powerful punches and opponents being in a position to counter him off balance ie him jumping out and throw a left and the guy gives him a pitty pat punch shove that makes him fall over, rather than weak chin.

Marciano would be a swarmer, fighting a harder hitting faster handed guy, better conditioned, better endurance, stronger, he loses,everytime.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:59 AM   #39
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

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Patterson beat Archie after Moore had already been brutalized by the Rock. We know what they say about opponents fighting the Rock. "After you get in the ring with Marciano, you're never the same afterward."


I think Patterson fought a great fight vs Moore, I also think Moore fought one of the worst fights of his career. Moore didn't bring his A game that night, regardless of Patterson's performance.
Moore had been brutalized by a lot of fighters yet he still kept campaigning on as a world champion and a heavyweight contender, for seven more years after Marciano beat him.

He may or may not have been at his best but I doubt old Archie had seen the kind of speed he faced against Patterson in the past few years of fighting bigger, slower heavyweights.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:51 AM   #40
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

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Only problem with your theory is a 1956 patterson loved to swarm and fight on the inside. He would basically be going toe to toe with Marciano for 15 rounds. Good idea? I think not. Especially when you consider patterson was only 180lb and had not fought any good heavyweights up to that point, let alone an ATG puncher like Marciano. Strength overwhelms speed in this case.

Man(marciano) vs a Boy(patterson)


Marciano by KO
Patty would have had sense enough to switch to plan-B against a man as physically strong as an aging Marciano in 1956....

Speed kills......

MR.BILL
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:04 AM   #41
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

Only way for Marciano to get credit for a Patterson win would have been for him to come out of retirement and beat him while Patterson was champion. Otherwise people would sadly just call Patterson a Light Heavyweight who wasn't ready or who was not good etc.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:34 AM   #42
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

Floyd Patterson will always be a great fighter in my mind. But I can't ignore the fact that he was also a very vulnerable champion, and in all likelyhood, was even more so when only 21 years of age and weighing at 180 lbs with less experience. Marciano would have been past his best in 1956 had he still been around, but we still had yet to see a true decline. Cus D'Amato certainly didn't like the idea of Floyd getting in the ring with him, and frankly I'm sure there was a reason for it. Now Patterson's handspeed, boxing skill and the kind of tenacity that only comes with youth, would have been a factor to consider without a doubt. But with that also came his tendency to be decked periodically and even KO'd occasionally. Johannson knocked out a fully primed and more seasoned Patterson than the one that the Rock would have been hypothetically facing had they met in 1956. In addition, Rocky was a seasoned warrior who had fought in numerous blood baths over many rounds, took hard shots and came back to win, figured out complex fighting styles of men like Walcott, Charles, Lastarza and others. Obviously we'll never know who would have won, but if they were to arrive here in their primes via time machine, I'd have to place my money on the more proven man...
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: How much would a Marciano win over Floyd Patterson in 1956 do for his legacy?

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Marciano is not stronger than Ingo, ingo weighed almost 30 pounds more, was younger hit harder
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