Haye v Dempsey

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by ron u.k.

Well regarding footwork Dempsey.Haye simply isn't quick on his feet.If you look at Dempsey for a swarmer he was unusual, he was always on his toes.
Handspeed wise it's a bit difficult to tell because of the old newsreel images of Dempsey,but I think he had pretty good handspeed he certainly wasn't slow,although Haye would probably have an edge in that department.

agree on both points.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by McGrain

But you're assuming Haye will fight aggressively, or seem to be. Why won't Haye just fight like he did against Valuev or Wlad? He can Firpo Dempsey, sure, but he's not some super-slick defensive specialist, if he tries any of that pissing about here, and form tells me he should, he would just get his head taken off.

Haye has shown nothing to me that suggests he would box anything but fearfully against Dempsey. Stretchered out.

Something to do with those men being 240-330lbs, much bigger with elite jabs, compared to 180lb Dempsey who had no jab and no size advantage

How about we compare against similar styles, ie: Chisora, Fragamoni or Mormeck. He showed frailties in all those fights that give Dempsey a decent chance here, but to compare Dempsey to Waldo and the big hairy giant is off base. The fights I mentioned he has 3kos out of 3, despite the frailties. How well did Dempsey do against fast counter punchers?

Dempsey gives many more countering opportunities because he punches more leaving more holes

[McGrain]

I haven't seen any evidence that Haye has this kind of mentality versus dangerous men, dangerous in excess of his natural ability to dominate them. His non-effort against Wlad was a total embarrassment. I personally feel I learned something about his mental limitations in that fight and have no problem using that to inform my pick.

My guess is Haye would get a sniff of Dempsey's punching, then run away in the ring. Haye has time to prove me wrong.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I haven't seen any evidence that Haye has this kind of mentality versus dangerous men, dangerous in excess of his natural ability to dominate them. His non-effort against Wlad was a total embarrassment. I personally feel I learned something about his mental limitations in that fight and have no problem using that to inform my pick.

My guess is Haye would get a sniff of Dempsey's punching, then run away in the ring. Haye has time to prove me wrong.

It has nothing to do with mental limitations but his lack of ability, Haye got outboxed not outbrawled. Anyone who's ever tried to brawl with Haye has been knocked out. Are Mormeck and Chisora not dangerous men? Enzo was scoring pretty brutal KOs on the way into the Haye fight too. Did Haye mentally fold in those?

Is Sam Langford mentally weak because he couldn't beat Jack Johnson? What about Napoles against Monzon?

Haye doesn't have the ability to fight on the front foot by bobbing and weaving, slipping jab and throwing short left hooks. He can't do any of those things and prefers to fight on the backfoot and counter. His footwork is also nowhere near as good as Wlad's

Fighting on the back foot and countering works well against Dempsey, Dempsey twice was dominated against a counter punching pot shotting mover. It doesn't work well against Wlad and no ones ever beat Wlad that way

I'm not even picking Haye here, but your criticising him for a losing a pure boxing match against the best of his time, Dempsey didn't face the best of his time

[McGrain]

Well I don't agree with you that it was related to ability but mentality specifically because he was outboxed. He was utterly, utterly out-boxed. His only way to win that fight was to become significantly more aggressive and violent and he knew that. He just didn't have the strength of mind and moral courage to follow it through.

You've seen it a lot lately when Donaire fights. Yes, he was better than his last three opponents by distance, and yes they all baulked at taking the hard road and trying to win. Haye didn't try to win in a fight he was doomed to lose when a way to win was at hand (shootout followed by KO). That is the very definition of a mental shortfall

I wouldn't pick any of them to take out an ATG box-puncher, either.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I haven't seen any evidence that Haye has this kind of mentality versus dangerous men, dangerous in excess of his natural ability to dominate them. His non-effort against Wlad was a total embarrassment. I personally feel I learned something about his mental limitations in that fight and have no problem using that to inform my pick.

My guess is Haye would get a sniff of Dempsey's punching, then run away in the ring. Haye has time to prove me wrong.

I agree.

I was disgusted with Haye's performance in the Wlad fight. This was the biggest night of his career, and he showed no heart at all. I too have to question his ability to handle a pressure fighter like Dempsey.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Well I don't agree with you that it was related to ability but mentality specifically because he was outboxed. He was utterly, utterly out-boxed. His only way to win that fight was to become significantly more aggressive and violent and he knew that. He just didn't have the strength of mind and moral courage to follow it through.

You've seen it a lot lately when Donaire fights. Yes, he was better than his last three opponents by distance, and yes they all baulked at taking the hard road and trying to win. Haye didn't try to win in a fight he was doomed to lose when a way to win was at hand (shootout followed by KO). That is the very definition of a mental shortfall

I wouldn't pick any of them to take out an ATG box-puncher, either.

What's your gameplan for a low output counter puncher outfighting a much technical higher output boxer. He isn't an adept pressure fighter. He's never been a mover to the left to set up left hooks.

At best he could try and edge forward jabbing with the jabber and trying to fire the right over the top. But he didn't really have the technical style to apply that type of pressure either

Dempsey isn't a boxer puncher either, he's a left hook happy high output brawler without a jab

I'm not even out right picking Haye here, I'm calling it 50-50, if Dempsey continually gets inside Haye is in big trouble, if Dempsey leaves himself open to Haye's right on the way in he could be sparked cold himself

[Boxed Ears]

I have no stills, I get asked where the fucking stills are. I get stills, he doesn't show up. Doesn't call, doesn't write, dinner is on the table, cold, congealing...Flowers may not cover it this time.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

At best he could try and edge forward jabbing with the jabber and trying to fire the right over the top. But he didn't really have the technical style to apply that type of pressure either

Why? Why is he technically incapable of feinting and throwing three punches, stepping out, drawing a jab, taking, or slipping the jab, then throwing two broadsides? Why is this completely beyond him? Why can't he get close, push his head into Wlad's face and beat the ribs? Just once in the fucking fight.

Jesus Christ, he was 11 rounds to nil down on my card before he made a move. Sorry. There's something very wrong there, he showed the type of aggression i'm talking about against Barrett, Mac and Mormeck, but as soon as he was presented with an offensive output the key to which did not lie in his physical advantages he made no. Effort. At. All.

None.

There's something wrong there.

And your opinion is different, and that's fine but it's a perfectly reasonable cornerstone for a pick to me, and so I make it a cornerstone to my pick.

[KidDynamite]

Dempsey would chop him down

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Why? Why is he technically incapable of feinting and throwing three punches, stepping out, drawing a jab, taking, or slipping the jab, then throwing two broadsides? Why is this completely beyond him? Why can't he get close, push his head into Wlad's face and beat the ribs? Just once in the fucking fight.

Jesus Christ, he was 11 rounds to nil down on my card before he made a move. Sorry. There's something very wrong there, he showed the type of aggression i'm talking about against Barrett, Mac and Mormeck, but as soon as he was presented with an offensive output the key to which did not lie in his physical advantages he made no. Effort. At. All.

None.

There's something wrong there.

And your opinion is different, and that's fine but it's a perfectly reasonable cornerstone for a pick to me, and so I make it a cornerstone to my pick.

He did feint, none of them were fell for and Wlad had the better feints. He did slip jabs, the jabs were doubled and trippled a, moving jabber against a flatfooted counter puncher. He did lunge in with punches and generally missed, bar the 12th. And no he isn't a put his head on the chest and work the body type, he isn't going to start doing something against the best opponent

As much as Haye 'should' have fought the way he did in the 12th for the full fight, he didn't have the gas tank to fight at such a pace

As much as he bores me Wlad is just too good and it was a stinker of a style match up

[McGrain]

If Haye is so limited as to be absolutely incapable of improving upon that non-performance against Wlad, I don't pick him to beat anyone great.

If Haye is, as I believe, limited in a different way, I don't pick him to beat anyone great.

And if he "doesn't have the gas tank" to fight at a higher pace than he did...that's pitiful, and he'd probably lose to all sorts of HW's. If he's not smart enough to know that fighting at that pace for rounds 5, 6 and 7 before collapsing gives him a better chance of winning than the effort he provided, he has another very serious problem.

It was a horrible, awful, pitiful non-effort against the only fighter to date he has met where his physical advantages didn't supply a complete solution.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by McGrain

If Haye is so limited as to be absolutely incapable of improving upon that non-performance against Wlad, I don't pick him to beat anyone great.

If Haye is, as I believe, limited in a different way, I don't pick him to beat anyone great.

And if he "doesn't have the gas tank" to fight at a higher pace than he did...that's pitiful, and he'd probably lose to all sorts of HW's. If he's not smart enough to know that fighting at that pace for rounds 5, 6 and 7 before collapsing gives him a better chance of winning than the effort he provided, he has another very serious problem.

It was a horrible, awful, pitiful non-effort against the only fighter to date he has met where his physical advantages didn't supply a complete solution.

You can't rate Wlad that highly perhaps. Maybe Wlad instill fear into all his competition or maybe none have the ability to live with him. Dempsey isn't in Wlad's league for me, neither is Tunney or Willard.

How about we turn it around 'if Dempsey isn't capable of beating Tunney, how can he be expected to beat anyone great'?

Circular logic, Dempsey is nothing like Wlad, so we go back to styles

Even if as you suspect it is a balls issue, didn't he show big balls against the top crusers, Dempsey's weight, and the top pressure fighter at HW today? Why would he be fearful against a man 20-35bs lighter than him and 2-3inches shorter?

A counter argument could be Dempsey was so scared of Wills he didn't even get in the ring with him and maybe similarly scared of the similarly sized similarly tanned Haye. Complete conjecture ofcourse

What isn't conjecture is Dempsey's lack of pedigree for breaking down defensively orientated boxers

[McGrain]

It's not about rating Wlad. It's about the worst 12 round effort i've ever seen from any supposedly elite fighter against the only truly elite competition he's met.

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by Boxed Ears

I have no stills, I get asked where the fucking stills are. I get stills, he doesn't show up. Doesn't call, doesn't write, dinner is on the table, cold, congealing...Flowers may not cover it this time.

Stills? Very curious. What is if this nameless, faceless he were to bring pudding pops. Perhaps that would 'cover' it, eh comrade?