Cleveland Williams vs Jerry Quarry

[SuzieQ49]

People seem to like to lump Williams in with Mac Foster, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers...when none of these men even had close to the speed Williams had. He wasn't the big cat for nothing.

Eddie Machen was lucky to get a draw with Cleveland Williams. He was shocked at Williams speed combined with his power. Machen went on to make Jerry look like an amateur 4 years later.

[FlyingFrenchman]

Williams stopped Ernie Terrell in the 7th. He drew with Eddie Machen over 10. He also lost a SD (could have went either way) to Machen in a rematch.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Difference is Williams was a big, FAST man.

But he wasn't that accomplished. I've heard all the anecdotal support for Williams but outside of Terrell, he just didn't beat an elite heavy, let alone stop one. Even "names" like Bethea and Miteff were on fumes by the time he got to them.

Quarry at least proved his mettle against Foster, Patterson, Lyle, Shavers and Mathis. Even his second tier of victories over guys like Neumann and Spencer are more impressive than almost all of Williams' victories. Quarry is just more proven... and it's not even close.

[SuzieQ49]

But he wasn't that accomplished. I've heard all the anecdotal support for Williams but outside of Terrell, he just didn't beat an elite heavy, let alone stop one. Even "names" like Bethea and Miteff were on fumes by the time he got to them.

Miteff was the # 7 ranked heavyweight in the world, and in line for a title shot against Patterson(according to the press) when Williams crushed him.

That's beside the point


Williams faced 3 elite fighters of his time. Ernie Terrell, Sonny Liston, and Eddie Machen. There is also substantial prove he was ducked numerous times by top level fighters including Floyd Patterson in 1964(who refused a WBA elimination match with Williams)

Let's judge on how he did vs the elite fighters he did fight


Sonny Liston I- One of the best slugfests of the decade. He broke Liston's nose in round 1, staggered him a few times, and backed him up. Liston eventually battered Williams in rounds 3 to win the war. Few could defeat a Prime Liston in the trenches. I commend Williams here for giving Liston one of his tougher fights in his prime. After this fight, Liston said "No one wants to fight Cleveland Williams. He hits just as hard as me."

Sonny Liston 2- See example 1. Liston did batter Williams in even worse fashion this time, perhaps because he knew what to expect this time around. But not before Williams got in some wicked triple left hook combinations.

Eddie Machen- Draw. AP had williams edging the fight on points. The fans also thought Williams won. It was a very close fight, Williams landed the harder shots and hurt machen in round 8. Machen in his prime had a difficult style for anyone, let alone a "slugger". I think Williams fighting on even terms with Machen showcases his underrated ability. Machen could have exposed Williams as a limited slugger, but Williams proved he had the necessary speed and stamina combined with his power to compete with an A level counterpuncher in his prime.

Ernie Terrell I- Terrell was a future WBA champion in his prime. A 6'6 skillful, awkward boxer with a terrific left jab, and a great chin. Williams corned Terrell in round 7 and battered him without mercy until the referee stopped the fight. Terrell would not be knocked out for another 10 years after this fight.

Ernie Terrell II- A terrific fight between two very athletic big men. Terrell won the split decision, however the AP card had Williams winning the fight. I also had Williams winning the fight. Williams knocked Terrell down in this fight, landed the harder punches, and kept a high pace. Terrell scored well with his jab and boxed well on the outside. Terrell beat a lot of good fighters during this period in easy fashion, so Williams being able to give Terrell this much trouble in 2 fights speaks of his ability to fight at an elite level. Ernie Terrell(a proven world class operator) had 2 opportunities to expose Williams as less than elite fighter, and failed miserably.

[SuzieQ49]

Quarry at least proved his mettle against Foster, Patterson, Lyle, Shavers and Mathis. Even his second tier of victories over guys like Neumann and Spencer are more impressive than almost all of Williams' victories. Quarry is just more proven... and it's not even close.

Quarry never fought a big man who had power COMBINED with the speed of Williams. Williams was an athletic freak, a man who fought on very even terms in multiple fights with men on the same level as quarry(Machen and Terrell).

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Miteff was the # 7 ranked heavyweight in the world, and in line for a title shot against Patterson(according to the press) when Williams crushed him.

Miteff had lost 5 of his previous 9 fights. He was a trialhorse for up and comers.

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Williams faced 3 elite fighters of his time. Ernie Terrell, Sonny Liston, and Eddie Machen. There is also substantial prove he was ducked numerous times by top level fighters including Floyd Patterson in 1964(who refused a WBA elimination match with Williams)

And he went 1-3-1. Again, the anecdotes are far more impressive than his actual record. I'll give Williams that, if he and Quarry wage a battle of anecdotes, he might actually win. But in the ring, I'll stick with the far more proven fighter in Quarry. Williams just doesn't have the accomplishments to justify being picked over Quarry. The only argument one could make would be one of styles. But again, Williams' particular style was never that effective at beating elite level fighters. I'll take Quarry's class of record over Williams' style.

[Senor Pepe']

Had 'The Big Cat' not suffered a gunshot wound,,,

He still would have been a viable Heavyweight from November 1964 probably
right through 1970.

Despite the 'knockout' losses to Sonny Liston, he was not 'beaten up' or a used up
fighter.

He was still dangerous in 1964, that Floyd Patterson wanted nothing to do with him.

Had Cleveland not been injured, he also would have been in the 1967/1968
WBA Tournament, and may have won it.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Had 'The Big Cat' not suffered a gunshot wound,,,

He still would have been a viable Heavyweight from November 1964 probably
right through 1970.

Despite the 'knockout' losses to Sonny Liston, he was not 'beaten up' or a used up
fighter.

He was still dangerous in 1964, that Floyd Patterson wanted nothing to do with him.

Had Cleveland not been injured, he also would have been in the 1967/1968
WBA Tournament, and may have won it.

And had Quarry not had an abusive ass-wipe for a father who beat him and shoved him into fights when he was injured, he might have not gone down the tubes so fast and been such a party animal...

At the end of the day, Quarry's ledger of victims is much more impressive than Williams. Whatever stylistic advantages one supposes Williams to have possessed, there is empiric evidence that Quarry's style was more effective.

[PowerPuncher]

Cleveland Williams is the most underrated HW in history, very fast hands, 1 of the best left hooks in history, good outboxer, good jab, immense power, huge and strong

It's laughable to compare him to Lyle and Mac Foster, but I suppose if they're big and black they're the same aren't they? He's several leagues above either and more up there with a faster, better schooled but less durable and less relentless Frazier style wise

CLeveland Williams TKO6 with Quarry stopped on his feet

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Cleveland Williams is the most underrated HW in history, very fast hands, 1 of the best left hooks in history, good outboxer, good jab, immense power, huge and strong

Outside of a single fight against Terrell, when did these attributes ever translate into a victory over an elite heavyweight?

Both these guys tend to be overrated at times. But Williams simply never achieved what Quarry did in the division. I take much more credence in results than delirious descriptors.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Quarry never fought a big man who had power COMBINED with the speed of Williams. Williams was an athletic freak, a man who fought on very even terms in multiple fights with men on the same level as quarry(Machen and Terrell).

I was at the Mac Foster fight, Foster was 6"3 210 and was 24-0 with 24 KO's and he had some pretty quick hands, by the way he ko'd an old Big Cat 2X, 3 years after Ali did

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJYd7jKgO9s[/ame]

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

People seem to like to lump Williams in with Mac Foster, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers...when none of these men even had close to the speed Williams had. He wasn't the big cat for nothing.

Eddie Machen was lucky to get a draw with Cleveland Williams. He was shocked at Williams speed combined with his power. Machen went on to make Jerry look like an amateur 4 years later.

Big Cat was 31-1 when he was dropped 2X and KO'd by 174lb Bob Satterfield, in all fairness Quarry was 17-0-3 when he lost to Machen and the Judges had it 4-5, 5-6 and 2-7 ......not too bad for a youngster

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Outside of a single fight against Terrell, when did these attributes ever translate into a victory over an elite heavyweight?

Both these guys tend to be overrated at times. But Williams simply never achieved what Quarry did in the division. I take much more credence in results than delirious descriptors.

Only Liston, Machen and Terrell would fight him it seems. He lost a brawl to Liston, drew with Machen and went 1-1 with Terrell perhaps deserving 2-0

Some fighters don't get the chance to prove themselves and you have to judge them with your own eyes

Beating Terrell is as good as beating the men Quarry beat

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Big Cat was 31-1 when he was dropped 2X and KO'd by 174lb Bob Satterfield, in all fairness Quarry was 17-0-3 when he lost to Machen and the Judges had it 4-5, 5-6 and 2-7 ......not too bad for a youngster

He was also still a 20yo, Quarry was 21 against a past prime Machen

[SuzieQ49]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Miteff had lost 5 of his previous 9 fights. He was a trialhorse for up and comers.



And he went 1-3-1. Again, the anecdotes are far more impressive than his actual record. I'll give Williams that, if he and Quarry wage a battle of anecdotes, he might actually win. But in the ring, I'll stick with the far more proven fighter in Quarry. Williams just doesn't have the accomplishments to justify being picked over Quarry. The only argument one could make would be one of styles. But again, Williams' particular style was never that effective at beating elite level fighters. I'll take Quarry's class of record over Williams' style.

"Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams, who shattered the title hopes of 7th ranked Alex Miteff with a 5th round TKO, set up a howl today for a shot at champion Floyd Patterson. If Williams ever looked as though he deserved a shot at the title, it was Tuesday night. He took command of the fight from Miteff from the start, opened a bad cut over his left eye in the 2nd, floored him for eight counts in the 3rd and 4th, and was beating him badly when referee Ernie Taylor mercifully ended it 1:32 deep into the 5th." -United Press International


How would Quarry have done vs the likes of Ernie Terrell 2x, Eddie Machen, Sonny Liston?

We know Liston would have smashed him twice. Let's throw Quarry a bone and say he splits with Terrell. That leaves Machen. Machen has an old man whupped Quarry. That's a loss.

So Quarry's record against these men would be 1-4!

[Seamus]

If I were more swayed by conjecture than fact I could agree with you, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.