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View Poll Results: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston
Marciano by KO 55 35.71%
Marciano by Decision 4 2.60%
Draw 4 2.60%
Liston by KO 78 50.65%
Liston by Decision 13 8.44%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-11-2012, 03:40 AM   #301
choklab
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Rocky fought one very skilled 215lb man, Joe Louis. Joe Louis was old, but still connected many times flush with his jab. Liston in his prime had a phenomenal jab, better than Louis's. Enough to convince me rocky's face would get badly damaged by it on his face in. Furthermore, when rocky did get inside..he would be met with a man that had an abundance of strength, killer short hook, and brutal uppercuts in both hands...Rocky would take a lot of punishment.
 
I think you are correct in that it would be a harder closer fight than people think. Where I disagree is the effectiveness with the jab. In one round Albert westphal ( a D lister at best) who was even 4 inches shorter than Marciano slipped 60% of Listons jabs. Now, if a honest, overmatched non-world class opponent with that kind of disadvantage has that kind of ratio against the Liston jab what will it say about how Marciano might fare against the jab?

Joe Louis’s success with the jab against Rocky is overblown. For two rounds Louis was so mauled he had no room for his usual strong jab so he was forced to adapted it into a flicking defensive jab to try and find space. He did land but he did not find the space to land anything off it. Even then it worked only for 2 rounds out of 8 (rounds 4 and 5) and this was only once Marciano bizarrely decided to stalk and counter. In round 3 joe was taking as many punches back as he was landing even with those tactics.
Like you say Liston can compete inside as effectively without relying on the jab, I just think he would find it harder than anything he ever had to cope with in real life.

Last edited by choklab; 10-12-2012 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:04 AM   #302
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by choklab View Post
 
I think you are correct in that it would be a harder closer fight than people think. Where I disagree is the effectiveness with the jab. In one round Albert westphal ( a D lister at best) who was even 4 inches shorter than Marciano slipped 60% of Listons jabs. Now, if a honest, overmatched non-world class opponent with that kind of disadvantage has that kind of ratio against the Liston jab what will it say about how Marciano might fare against the jab?

Joe Louisís success with the jab against Rocky is overblown. For two rounds Louis was so mauled he had no room for his usual strong jab so he was forced to adapted it into a flicking defensive jab to try and find space. He did land but he did not find the space to land anything off it. Even then it worked only for 2 rounds out of 8 (rounds 4 and 5) and this was only once Marciano bizarrely decided to stalk and counter. In round 3 he was taking as many punches back as he was landing even with those tactics.
Like you say Liston can compete inside as effectively without relying on the jab, I just think he would find it harder than anything he ever had to cope with in real life.


I agree with this.....this is a tough hard fought fight for both men. Rocky is one of my favorite fighters and that may influence my opinion but in reality it is the substance and intelligence of the man and the fact that he was a beast and truly great fighter that makes me love him. Marciano is a hard man for anyone to beat, never-mind the statement of some that he would be blown out like the 5"7 Wesphal that so many on ESB have been repeating, Harry Matthews was a far better fighter than Westphal and look at what was done to him.


I can see Suzie loving Sonny like I love Walcott and at least Suzie said it would be a tough fight but some of these guys are looking at Marciano and not seeing the fighter and man that he was. Some of them are very indignant if you have a difference of opinion.

I was good friends with some in the Patterson family, so I have a lot of insight into Sonny Liston and Floyds mindset at the time of their fights....Floyd came out of it a better man but it took some time for him to digest what caused him to fail and the fear.....Floyd really felt he had the style to beat Ali and felt if he had not had the injury he would have beaten Ali, but he knew guys like Liston and Marciano, with the power and pressure were all wrong for him....but he also felt he was at a mental low for the Liston fights and was admittedly intimidated ....I mean Patterson was the best fighter Liston fought with Eddie Machen next, the rest are guys that were beaten or KO'd by other guys besides Liston who were 180-185lbs... DeJohn may have been the best puncher Liston faced but was also dropped and KO'd and was very easy to hit, other than that we have Williams and I am not impressed with his credentials against quality opponents....I have my doubts how well Sonny would do against a quality puncher

Well, I am tired of beating a dead horse and I am done with this subject.....but Choklab you brought up some very good points and gave a respectable analysis of your opinion despite the onslaught by the usually Marciano under miners
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:17 PM   #303
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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....I mean Patterson was the best fighter Liston fought with Eddie Machen next, the rest are guys that were beaten or KO'd by other guys besides Liston who were 180-185lbs... DeJohn may have been the best puncher Liston faced
You are forgetting Zora Folley, who beat Eddie Machen.

Also Cleveland Williams was a better puncher than Mike DeJohn. So was Nino Valdes.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:31 PM   #304
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Forget about 'regular fights'

In sparring, which I witnessed,,,,,

Jimmy McCarter, a strong 6' 2" 215 lb. ex-college football player and part-time boxer,
used to 'man-handle' Sonny with relative ease in sparring sessions.

As Jimmy showed in numerous gym-sessions while sparring with Sonny up at The Pines
in the Catskills, Sonny had poor balance and terrible foot-work.
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:43 PM   #305
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
You are forgetting Zora Folley, who beat Eddie Machen.

Also Cleveland Williams was a better puncher than Mike DeJohn. So was Nino Valdes.
Foley was Ko'd by 12 fight Lavorante less than a year later and 2 years later by 185lb Doug Jones so I'm not so impressed.

Nino Valdes was 35 years old and the Liston fight was next to his last fight,also Valdes was KO'd by Charlie Powell 4 months before Liston so I'm not so impressed

As far as Cleveland Williams you cant really tell when he fought quality other than Terrel who he later drew with, Big Cats power was not evident by his record against contenders


Sorry I was supposed to be done with this "Just when I want to quit they draw me back in"
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:50 PM   #306
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Wow !

Just spent the best part of an hour reading that, dunno how i missed it before.
Great points from both sides ( some not so )

Although i wouldn't rule out a Marciano win completely some of you guys have him Superman, Batman and Ironman all rolled into one.

Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Marciano
Liston
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis

Any of the above can be beaten by each other on any given night but jeez, match any of those against Rocky and the diehards come up with the usual
closed mindedness :-

''I like Rocky in this one, too much heart etc''

For sure the guy was tough as anyone, heart of a lion, crazy stamina but hand on heart some of you Rock jocks must fear the end of the world occuring if you pick against him in any fantasy bout.


For christs sake, just accept he could lose once in a while.

Just because he never lost does not mean he is Superman.

Last edited by BlackCloud; 12-02-2013 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 12-02-2013, 02:07 PM   #307
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
How many good fighters did Liston beat who were over 200 Lbs?
Not really the point though, is it? If Liston fought Marciano, he wouldn't have to beat a 200-pounder; Marciano would.
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Old 12-02-2013, 07:03 PM   #308
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
Liston beat-

Zora Folley KO3, 198 Lbs.

Eddie Machen W12, 196 Lbs.

Floyd Patterson KO1 x2, 189 and 194 Lbs.

Cleveland Williams (who actually kinda sucked) KO3 and KO2, 210 and 215 Lbs.

Who else?

Johnny Summerlin W8 and WSD8

Marty Marshall 2 out of 3, he weighed 180 Lbs when he beat Liston

Bert Whitehurst x2, W10 x2, 190 Lbs

Wayne Bethea, Frnakie Daniels, Ernie Cab, Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Willi Besmanoff, Howard King x2, Roy Harris, Albert Westphal, Henry Clark, Chuck Wepner? Who gives a shit?

Folley, Machen, and Patterson are good wins. All of them were under 200 Lbs. Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ in history (20 times). Folley was not very durable. Machen was pretty durable and did go the distance with Liston... he did get stopped in 1 round by Johansson though. Patterson had good power but Folley and Machen not so much.
kind of puts things into perspective.
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Old 12-02-2013, 07:50 PM   #309
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Marxiano beat one top-quality heavyweight under the age of 35...perspective has multiple angles.
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:53 PM   #310
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Danmann View Post
Marciano was harder hitter. He had better record. He would have beaten Paterson, who was scared of Liston. Patterson was beat before he got in ring with Liston. Every expert of that era said Marciano was better. Yet because of Liston's looks, weight, and mysterious death leading to him getting legend status, people are picking him, and making him out o be great.
I think you might be trying a little too hard to diminish Liston. He was a great heavyweight.

It`s a good fight. I`d chose Liston but I could also see Marciano finding a way if he can get the fight into the later rounds. His conditioning and stamina were top notch.
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Old 12-02-2013, 09:36 PM   #311
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
Marciano beat-
Roland LaStarza W10 and KO11, 187 Lbs. Yes, the first fight was close... LaStarza was down in the 4th and Marciano lost a point for lowblows in the 8th.
Who the f u c k did this overrated Goombah ever beat? Seriously, LaStarza was a C-level fighter only famous because Marciano struggled against him. Total greaseball shit.
Rex Layne KO6, 193 Lbs.

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Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
Joe Louis KO8, 214 Lbs. He had won his last 8, 3 by KO.
A total and complete mummy. He had NO right hand and the footwork of the embalmed. In his previous effort against Bivens likewise, he had NO right hand. This was a shadow of a shadow of the greatness that was Louis. Anyone willing to paint it otherwise is fully indulging in willful ignorance of this highest order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
Lee Savold KO6, 200 Lbs.
Savold was 7-5-1 coming into this, his last fight. Put a fork in him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
Harry Matthews KO2, 180 Lbs.
A total hype job according the Archie Moore. Marciano did what he had to, what he should have and what was expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
Jersy (sic) Joe Walcott KO13 and KO1, 197 and 198 Lbs.
His penultimate and last fights. 38 and 39 years old in these fights which is a recipe for homicidal death when facing a fighter with the durability and stamina of Marciano. Still, life and death in the 1st fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
Ezzard Charles W15 and KO8, 186 and 193Lbs.
Great victories if he had been a lightheavy. As a heavy, he beat a guy a division too high, almost 100 fights into his career, and who did not go .500 for the rest of his career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman View Post
Don ****ell KO9, 205 Lbs.
Seriously? This guy who Marciano bombed with every punch he had and still lasted 9 rounds would not be sanctioned in this day and age for a heavyweight fight of any note.

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Archie Moore KO9, 189 Lbs.
Again, great victory for a lightheavy. Decent victory for a heavy.
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Old 12-02-2013, 10:12 PM   #312
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Who the f u c k did this overrated Goombah ever beat? Seriously, LaStarza was a C-level fighter only famous because Marciano struggled against him. Total greaseball shit.
Rex Layne KO6, 193 Lbs.


A total and complete mummy. He had NO right hand and the footwork of the embalmed. In his previous effort against Bivens likewise, he had NO right hand. This was a shadow of a shadow of the greatness that was Louis. Anyone willing to paint it otherwise is fully indulging in willful ignorance of this highest order.


Savold was 7-5-1 coming into this, his last fight. Put a fork in him.


A total hype job according the Archie Moore. Marciano did what he had to, what he should have and what was expected.


His penultimate and last fights. 38 and 39 years old in these fights which is a recipe for homicidal death when facing a fighter with the durability and stamina of Marciano. Still, life and death in the 1st fight.


Great victories if he had been a lightheavy. As a heavy, he beat a guy a division too high, almost 100 fights into his career, and who did not go .500 for the rest of his career.


Seriously? This guy who Marciano bombed with every punch he had and still lasted 9 rounds would not be sanctioned in this day and age for a heavyweight fight of any note.


Again, great victory for a lightheavy. Decent victory for a heavy.

Ha Ha great work trying to keep this tread alive, I haven't heard the word grease-ball since I used to hang out in those Donkey bar's years ago but it took a few beers and a Celtic crowd and some whiskey balls to let the words slip out of the lips but then again all of the other ethnic group & races had names as well ...If Marciano was Irish St.Patrick's day would be St. Rocky's day.

lets face it he beat the best of his era and Moore,Charles,Layne,LaStarza beat all of the better Big men and made it to # 1...Rocky beat big men but none of the 6'3 guys made the grade...even 6"3 Big Cat & 6"2 Bob Baker were dominated & dropped by Bob Satterfield and Archie as well as 6'3 Nino Valdez....Marciano fought 5 # 1 contenders in an era of 1 champion and no split titles and if we have to reach for the Don ****el slaughter to critique Marciano ( a Sledgehammer to kill a mosquito) then so be it, it was still a slaughter

Lets face it Seamus you got some old fashioned throw back Irish bigotry but could be somehow sparked by the Irish curse you endure on a daily basis
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:16 PM   #313
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Style wise it's good for Liston, however he'd have to be at his VERY best to beat RM.

I can't call it.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:45 PM   #314
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX View Post
Marxiano beat one top-quality heavyweight under the age of 35...perspective has multiple angles.
who was this one guy? I count at 7 fights with at least 5 top quality heavyweights under the age of 35.

Layne, Lastarza, Mathews, kockell, Charles were all under 35, top quality and beating rated fighters when Marciano knocked them all out. It is a myth Rocky only fought old men past their best.

How old is Vitali again?

When Hopkins loses will fans be saying he was an accident waiting to happen or will we be saying one of the great veteran fighters finaly lost? How much younger and better were Archie Moore and Walcott than Hopkins?
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Old 12-03-2013, 02:37 PM   #315
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

I was referring to Charles. The rest of your list are not what I would call "top quality" heavyweights.
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