Fourth and fifth best heavyweights of the nineties ?

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

Tough,is n't it Mr Magoo ? It's like rating the eighties bunch. You have Holmes then Tyson or vice versa,then it gets messy.

Yeah its pretty difficult.

Moorer had some good wins over Holyfield ( not at his best on that night but still ), Alex Stewart, Bert Cooper, Axel Schultz, and Frans. He ended the 90's with something like a 39-2 pro record and the claim to winning the lineal title. Foreman's record from 1990-1997 was 12-3, with wins over Michael Moorer, Adilson Rodriguez, Axel Schultz, Lou savarese, Alex Stewart, Pierre Coetzer and a shot Cooney to go along with winning the crown. Not too bad either.. Tyson's record was 9-3 for the decade and had wins over Ruddock, Stewart, Bruno and Seldon, plus recaptured two thirds of the title in his comeback... Kind of a tight spot comparing those three.

[NoNeck]

Tyson at 4. Moorer at 5.

On a sidenote, Oliver McCall had a similar but thoroughly better 90s than Foreman. A prime athlete crazy person/crack addict doesn't get the same love as a jolly old guy.

--Lennox KO>Moorer KO

Foreman's victory over Moorer is regarded as some triumph of perseverance. Really, it's a one punch knockout of a fighter with a shaky chin who was beating him. McCall had a one punch knockout over a much better fighter in Lewis.

--wins over Seldon, Holmes, Damiani, green Maskaev> loss to Holy, controversial loss to Briggs, controversial win over Shultz, and a win over Adilson Rodriguez.

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by NoNeck

Tyson at 4. Moorer at 5.

On a sidenote, Oliver McCall had a similar but thoroughly better 90s than Foreman. A prime athlete crazy person/crack addict doesn't get the same love as a jolly old guy.

--Lennox KO>Moorer KO

Foreman's victory over Moorer is regarded as some triumph of perseverance. Really, it's a one punch knockout of a fighter with a shaky chin who was beating him. McCall had a one punch knockout over a much better fighter in Lewis.

--wins over Seldon, Holmes, Damiani, green Maskaev> loss to Holy, controversial loss to Briggs, controversial win over Shultz, and a win over Adilson Rodriguez.

Welcome to the site,NoNeck


Good view. I think I've settled on Moorer as number five now.

[mr. magoo]

=NoNeck;13968712]
Foreman's victory over Moorer is regarded as some triumph of perseverance. Really, it's a one punch knockout of a fighter with a shaky chin who was beating him. McCall had a one punch knockout over a much better fighter in Lewis.

Foreman beat the very best version of Moorer. McCall beat a solid fighter in Lewis, but one who's skill had yet to improve. And if we're going to chalk up Foreman's win over Moorer as a case of a one punch knockout, then I think we can do the same in McCall's case.

--wins over Seldon, Holmes, Damiani, green Maskaev> loss to Holy, controversial loss to Briggs, controversial win over Shultz, and a win over Adilson Rodriguez.

Let's expand upon this a little. Foreman also had wins over Coetzer, Stewart and Savarese, who were all comparable to Seldon and an aged Damiani.. McCall defeated an extremely old Holmes who some felt was an iffy decision. Maskaev had only 6 fights, and took a three year leave of abscence after his pro debut. Foreman's losses in the 90's were decisions to Holyfield, Morrison and Briggs. McCall's losses for the decade were Lewis, Bruno, Tucker and Norris. Two of those opponents were past it.. Top it off with the fact that McCall had one of the most disgraceful quit jobs in boxing history in the Lewis rematch, and I think I'm going with Foreman as the better man of the decade.

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

Welcome to the site,NoNeck


Good view. I think I've settled on Moorer as number five now.

Welcome...sure, sort of. Thanks.

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Foreman beat the very best version of Moorer. McCall beat a solid fighter in Lewis, but one who's skill had yet to improve. And if we're going to chalk up Foreman's win over Moorer as a case of a one punch knockout, then I think we can do the same in McCall's case.




Let's expand upon this a little. Foreman also had wins over Coetzer, Stewart and Savarese, who were all comparable to Seldon and an aged Damiani.. McCall defeated an extremely old Holmes who some felt was an iffy decision. Maskaev had only 6 fights, and took a three year leave of abscence after his pro debut. Foreman's losses in the 90's were decisions to Holyfield, Morrison and Briggs. McCall's losses for the decade were Lewis, Bruno, Tucker and Norris. Two of those opponents were past it.. Top it off with the fact that McCall had one of the most disgraceful quit jobs in boxing history in the Lewis rematch, and I think I'm going with Foreman as the better man of the decade.

I chalk both up to one punch knockouts. Would you pick Moorer to beat Lewis? That's the real question and my main basis since neither did an incredible amount else.

Coetzer was a joke. Stewart had already taken loses and proven to not be good. Count Savarese if you want to--that win is better than Maskaev at least.

I still think Damiani and Seldon were better than these guys. Damiani was a good fighter and would've been undefeated if things turned out a little different against Mercer. Seldon legitimately won a title. I didn't watch McCall's fights with Tucker and Norris, but I assume they were close loses. And Tucker was still a decent contender in the early 90s. I'm sure Holmes would've beaten Foreman too. I think it boils down to picturing McCall as a crying crackhead to drop him in the rankings, which I don't think is legit.

[mr. magoo]

=NoNeck;13968884] Would you pick Moorer to beat Lewis? That's the real question and my main basis since neither did an incredible amount else.

If this is your basis, then its rather weak given that I highly doubt you would have picked McCall to beat Lewis either. In either case, Moorer and Lewis never fought.. What we DO KNOW is that Moorer was 35-0 and the reigning lineal champion when Foreman knocked him out.

Coetzer was a joke. Stewart had already taken loses and proven to not be good.

Yet Seldon who never beat anyone worth a fuck and was dropped in a single round by Riddick Bowe just a few months after McCall sparked him was better than those two?

Count Savarese if you want to--that win is better than Maskaev at least.

I'd say Savarese was at leat comparable to wins over Seldon and Damiani.

Damiani was a good fighter and would've been undefeated if things turned out a little different against Mercer.

"would've been undefeated" gets a bit thwarted when you get knocked out. He was also past it by the time McCall got to him.

Seldon legitimately won a title.

Not really.. I can remember back around 1995, while watching another fight, Larry Merchant commented on how ridiculous it was that the WBA had Seldon Ranked at #2 and Tucker ranked at #1. Tucker hadn't beaten anyone noteworthy in years and Seldon hadn't beaten anyone period, yet the two of them were being lined up to fight for the vacant WBA strap.. Bottom line... Don King was manufacturing a champ to be easy pickings for a comeback Tyson, and he found the perfect man.

I didn't watch McCall's fights with Tucker and Norris, but I assume they were close loses.

I didn't either, but losses to those guys aren't any better than losses to Holyfield, Morrison and Briggs whom at least were in their primes.

I'm sure Holmes would've beaten Foreman too.

More speculation which doesn't boost McCall's record.

I think it boils down to picturing McCall as a crying crackhead to drop him in the rankings, which I don't think is legit..

His habits outside the ring have no bearing on my opinion either... But refusing to fight, then breaking down and crying while being IN THE RING, and in a championship fight do....

[Flea Man]

Was Ike Vs Byrd in '99 or 2000?

If it's the former, I might put him up there. Monster.

[Lester1583]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Was Ike Vs Byrd in '99 or 2000?

1999.

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Monster.

Wach would knock him out cuz Wach is taller than Ike.

[SuzieQ49]

42 year old Foreman of 1990 would have not lasted 7 rounds with Mike Tyson of 1990. Tyson would have killed him.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

42 year old Foreman of 1990 would have not lasted 7 rounds with Mike Tyson of 1990. Tyson would have killed him.

Buster Douglas wasn't supposed to last 7 rounds with Tyson either.

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

If this is your basis, then its rather weak given that I highly doubt you would have picked McCall to beat Lewis either. In either case, Moorer and Lewis never fought.. What we DO KNOW is that Moorer was 35-0 and the reigning lineal champion when Foreman knocked him out.

Get real. McCall sparked an undefeated champ who would go on to be arguably a top 5 heavy of all time, definitely top 10. Foreman sparked an undefeated champ who went on to obscurity. A win over Moorer is good, but in no way comparable to beating Lennox. I can't imagine how worshipped Foreman would be if he accomplished what McCall did. Actually, I can; it would be disgusting.

The rest of McCall's 90s resume is at worst comparable to Foreman's, but really it's a little better. Neither are great.

[mr. magoo]

=NoNeck;13969462]Get real. McCall sparked an undefeated champ who would go on to be arguably a top 5 heavy of all time, definitely top 10. Foreman sparked an undefeated champ who went on to obscurity.

Rating the quality of a victory based on what the opposition " went on " to do is irrelevant. What counts is what the win was worth at the time.

A win over Moorer is good, but in no way comparable to beating Lennox.

See the above comment.

I can't imagine how worshipped Foreman would be if he accomplished what McCall did. Actually, I can; it would be disgusting.

No. He likely would have been sold short for " landing a lucky punch over a green opponent who's chin was questionable. " Basically the story of Foreman's whole career according to his critics.

The rest of McCall's 90s resume is at worst comparable to Foreman's, but really it's a little better.

I'll settle for a mutual agreement for comparable. Better is not something I'm likely to agree with.

[lufcrazy]

I didn't think MM beat Holy and I don't really rate him too highly, plus he got battered by a 50 year old man.

I'd say Tyson 4th, easily.

5th is between Ike and Tua. I need to rewatch their fight and whoever I think wins it is probably who I'll go along with.

[lufcrazy]

McCall ko Lewis > Foreman ko Moorer. by miles.