Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-12-2012, 01:01 PM   #61
guilalah
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 944
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
That's kind of dodging the question if we're honest. When doing a fantasy matchup you have to compare the two fighters as they REALLY were.
Well, if the question is 1 e.g. how would Ali, as he was in his day, deal with Lewis, as Lewis was in his own day, that's the question people should discuss.

However, there is nothing illogical about asking 2 how Ali would have done if he's have come along in Lewis's day, or vice versa, the temporally transplanted boxer developing in analogy to how he had developed in his own time (i.e., in proportion to the opportunities for development).

There are degrees of actualities. The boxers nature is an actuality which is a potential for his or her powers; their actual powers is in turn a potential for their operations. Scenario 1 requires us to consider a boxers powers (and how they may actuate as operations against one another), but not necessarily their nature (i.e., their potential for powers); scenario 2, on the other hand, requires us to consider also the fighters nature (i.e., potential to have power) as it may be actuated in various circumstances.

Last edited by guilalah; 10-12-2012 at 02:05 PM.
guilalah is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 10-12-2012, 01:08 PM   #62
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,755
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by guilalah View Post
Well, if the question is 1 e.g. how would Ali, as he was in his day, deal with Lewis, as Lewis was in his own day, that's the question people should discuss.

However, there is nothing illogical about asking 2 how Ali would have done if he's have come along in Lewis's day, or vice versa, the temporally transplanted boxer developing in analogy to how he had developed in his own time (i.e., in proportion to the opportunities for development).

There are degrees of actualities. The boxers nature is an actuality which is a potential for his or her powers; their actual powers is in turn a potential for their operations. Scenario 1 requires us to consider a boxers powers (and how they may actuate as operations against one another), but not necessarily their nature (i.e., their potential for powers); scenario 4, on the other hand, requires us to consider also the fighters nature (i.e., potential to have power) as it may be actuated in various circumstances.

Why don't we just ask ourselves this:

If Lewis had been born in 1945 and to a different set of parents, would he have become an actor and appeared in Monty Python and perhaps even the Benny Hill show, rather than take up boxing?
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:13 PM   #63
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,374
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBanzai View Post
Wlad gained about 10lbs as a pro, his 20 or 21 year old weight was boy weight. lewis on the other hand was all juice and all his weight gain came from a bottle.

Prime Ali would not only win every round against Lewis, he would KO him in 8 or less.
You of course have proof to back up these statements.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:24 PM   #64
NoNeck
Pugilist Specialist
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,271
vCash: 500
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei00 View Post
Why not? Ernie Terrell was 6'6".
Ernie had cement feet too.
NoNeck is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:33 PM   #65
NoNeck
Pugilist Specialist
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,271
vCash: 500
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hernanday View Post
What do all Large guys with jabs like Lewis and Klitschko have as vulnerabilities.
1. Klitschko reach is also 80, so there goes his jab. Him and ali have equal reaches meaning the guy with the faster fist and feet win. And I don't even have to explain that one further.
2. Lewis arms are longer, he hits harder, but again the downside of being tall is when you throw your jab you are vulnerable to counters by a fast footed or a fast handed opponent, and no one has faster feet nor hands in the heavyweight division save for possibly tyson or patterson in their primes.

ali is not sitting around, he is sticking and moving, he is going to make these big guys move, they are going to get tired and neither has good endurance. Klitschko got rope a doped by ross purrity, who do you think rope a dopes better ross puritty or muhammad ali. Lennox only lost by being koed 2 times under 6 rounds with surprise shots. I have Ali winning both handedly by knockouts.
Most jabs are aimed at the face. If height were the only variable (reach being equal), this still puts the shorter fighter at a disadvantage.
NoNeck is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:46 PM   #66
guilalah
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 944
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
guilalah
Well, if the question is 1 e.g. how would Ali, as he was in his day, deal with Lewis, as Lewis was in his own day, that's the question people should discuss.

However, there is nothing illogical about asking 2 how Ali would have done if he's have come along in Lewis's day, or vice versa, the temporally transplanted boxer developing in analogy to how he had developed in his own time (i.e., in proportion to the opportunities for development).

There are degrees of actualities. The boxers nature is an actuality which is a potential for his or her powers; their actual powers is in turn a potential for their operations. Scenario 1 requires us to consider a boxers powers (and how they may actuate as operations against one another), but not necessarily their nature (i.e., their potential for powers); scenario 2, on the other hand, requires us to consider also the fighters nature (i.e., potential to have power) as it may be actuated in various circumstances.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
Why don't we just ask ourselves this:


If Lewis had been born in 1945 and to a different set of parents, would he have become an actor and appeared in Monty Python and perhaps even the Benny Hill show, rather than take up boxing?
Hi, Mr. Magoo


Well, you have some point. Now, what I am taking to be constants for scenario 2 are e.g. that Ali in Lewis's day 1) has the same potential to develop his powers (according to circumstances) as the real Ali; 2) that this Ali does develop himself in a way analogous (i.e., in proportion to opportunity for developement) as the real Ali. If you wish to call the Ali in this hypothetical scenario, not 'Ali', but rather 'an Ali-type boxer in Lewis's day', I have no objection.

Last edited by guilalah; 10-12-2012 at 02:04 PM.
guilalah is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:55 PM   #67
IntentionalButt
Nash Equilibrium Debunker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 123,148
vCash: 35250
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
No , he could not .

Ali's style was 1 that relied on having size advantage and/or cheating and/or fighting severely lousy opponents and/or having a fix .

Some combination of d above .
...five pages, and nobody bit?
IntentionalButt is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 01:56 PM   #68
turbotime
Future Hall Of Famer
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: LA/Canada
Posts: 18,342
vCash: 816
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Ali wasn't exactly a tiny heavyweight. Neither was Louis. They didn't weigh as much but a case can be made their savvy and techniques would pose big threats. I still think Ali is the best H2H heavyweight ever, then Lennox, so I'm biased.
turbotime is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 02:20 PM   #69
Andrei00
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Romania
Posts: 373
vCash: 460
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNeck View Post
Ernie had cement feet too.
Yeah, most likely. However, I still think Ali beats Lewis. Too much movement, handspeed, and I believe Ali is smarter too.

P.S: This comes from a pretty big anti-Ali guy!
Andrei00 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2012, 02:52 PM   #70
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,755
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by guilalah View Post
Hi, Mr. Magoo


Well, you have some point. Now, what I am taking to be constants for scenario 2 are e.g. that Ali in Lewis's day 1) has the same potential to develop his powers (according to circumstances) as the real Ali; 2) that this Ali does develop himself in a way analogous (i.e., in proportion to opportunity for developement) as the real Ali. If you wish to call the Ali in this hypothetical scenario, not 'Ali', but rather 'an Ali-type boxer in Lewis's day', I have no objection.

Give Ali 20 lbs of muscle and some dread locks and he mops the floor with Lewis.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 01:06 AM   #71
hernanday
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 204
vCash: 500
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
You can beat a taller man with a good reach advantage if you mount in and out flurries . eg Leonard v Hearns. Lewis's reach is the same as Liston's.
That is a way also to do it, but you will be getting hit to. With angles tallerman is missing you aren't
hernanday is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 02:18 AM   #72
OvidsExile
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Washington
Posts: 998
vCash: 500
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Ali had the same height, reach, fighting weight, chin, stamina, and punching power as Evander Holyfield. Plus, he was faster than Holyfield and a better boxer with much better footwork. Having just watched a 37 year old Holyfield fight a 34 year old Lewis twice, I gave the first fight to Lewis by a point and the second to Holyfield by two. If Holyfield could fight two close fights with Lewis then Ali could do at least as well, depending which phase of their careers both men were in.

Lewis' main weapon in both Holyfield fights was a jab and Ali had a better jab than Lewis. Ali would likewise be giving up six inches of reach and two inches of height, which would make it difficult to pot shot at range and head hunt the way he liked to do, but I can't see Ali stalking, pressuring Lewis, backing him up, lunging in, trying to work the inside and getting counter punched all night like Holyfield did. Ali'd probably let Lewis be the aggressor and hit him coming in or when Lewis bent over to throw shots the way he did with Holyfield. And he might try leaning against the ropes, turning, and blocking punches the way he fought George Foreman.

Last edited by OvidsExile; 10-13-2012 at 02:44 AM.
OvidsExile is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 03:20 AM   #73
MadcapMaxie
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,406
vCash: 500
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBanzai View Post
Wlad gained about 10lbs as a pro, his 20 or 21 year old weight was boy weight. lewis on the other hand was all juice and all his weight gain came from a bottle.

Prime Ali would not only win every round against Lewis, he would KO him in 8 or less.
Wlad gained a significant amount of weight compared to his early pro days and his days in kick boxing about 30lbs+ actually, as well his brother was caught with them so i can safely assume he takes them.

Both Lewis and the K2 would be ALOT smaller had they grown up and fought in Ali's era, they have huge advantages in modern diets, supplements, weight training and roids to gain strength and size. All Ali did was drink juice, eat lean meat, hit the bag, run, spar and do sit ups. Ali was naturally a very huge guy and it honestly wouldn't suprise me at all if the K2 were born in that era and did that type of training if they didnt even scale 200lbs.
MadcapMaxie is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 04:26 AM   #74
Stevie G
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London,England
Posts: 9,345
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
Why don't we just ask ourselves this:

If Lewis had been born in 1945 and to a different set of parents, would he have become an actor and appeared in Monty Python and perhaps even the Benny Hill show, rather than take up boxing?

That's given me food for thought. Combine the two scenarios of boxing and Monty Python Picture Lennox in the ring after hearing the judges decision at the end of his first fight with Evander Holyfield. Lennox taking the mic and saying to the crowd "There's worse things that happen at sea ya know.......Always look on the bright side of life. This judge's decision's a lot of shit when it comes to it........"
Stevie G is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2012, 04:30 AM   #75
hernanday
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 204
vCash: 500
Default Re: Could Ali handle the size of a Lewis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNeck View Post
Most jabs are aimed at the face. If height were the only variable (reach being equal), this still puts the shorter fighter at a disadvantage.
I never said height was the only variable in fact I said
"1. Klitschko reach is also 80, so there goes his jab. Him and ali have equal reaches meaning the guy with the faster fist and feet win."
Two gun slingers with the same gun, whoever can pull quicker wins. whoever is able to fire it off first wins.

Even at that the shorter fighter is at an advantage because there is less of him to hit, no one practices throwing punches down. And everyone knows you chop a tree down by the root not the top, there'd be no reason for Ali to attempt to throw to his face when his body is wide open.

Even if we assume two equal fighters with only difference being height. Who has a bigger head, who has bigger body, who will not be able to properly defend their body because there arms are proportionally shorter, who will tired first because tall guys have endurance issues. Despite being cut as he is Klitschko will never be able to keep both his muscle and move well. Lennox is a freak in that regard.
hernanday is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013