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Old 10-11-2012, 06:25 AM   #31
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
I agree Johnson did not possess Liston's power ,but he was not feather fisted either. He kod Denver Ed Martin for so long the authorities held him in custody in case Martin died.Sam McVey has 5 stoppages on his 89 fight record, three were because of disputed fouls , one was after 49rds with Jeannette, when McVey could not see his opponent any longer, only two were kos ,one to Langford ,one to Johnson,when McVey regained consciousness against Johnson , he asked his manager, "what happened?" His manager replied," it was a draw , and they robbed us". Johnson seldom went for the ko , but he could hit alright.
Martin had a glass jaw and weak body. He was Ko'd early a few times.

Of course you leave out tons of inconvienet facts in this thread. Allow me to educate you once again.

1 ) Langford was likely 20 years old! You never mention this!

2 ) McVey was 19,19, and 20 years old! Once again, Johnson was picking on a youngster.

3 ) Jeannette had a losing record or was close to .500 in many of the matches. Yet he held his own in some of the matches. According to Jeanette, he was never above 170 pounds when he meet Johnson, and certainly lacked experience.

In all these fights ( at least 10 ), Johnson only scored 1 stoppage win, and it was in the last round vs. Mcvey. When Langford, Jeanette and McVey hit their primes ( 1908-1915 ) Johnson would not fight them. Johnson settled for white hopes types. Is it coincidence that Johnson avoided Gunboat Smith, who knocked him silly in their 4 round ex match? I think not! Smith wasn’t a hope. He could fight.

Summary: Johnson skirted his four best challengers as Champion: Langford, Smith, McVey, and Jeannette. What distinguised champion does this? Instead, Johnson was out boxed according to some primary / local sources vs. O’Brien who was a super middle. He was knocked down by another super middle in Ketchel. He drew vs. journeyman Battling Jim Johnson ( NO RE-MATCH GIVEN ), and barely defeated a mere contender type in Moran. The best Johnson fought in a title match was Willard, and he produced a ten count. Color me not impressed with his title opponents, or the results he had.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:13 AM   #32
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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Martin had a glass jaw and weak body. He was Ko'd early a few times.

Of course you leave out tons of inconvienet facts in this thread. Allow me to educate you once again.

1 ) Langford was likely 20 years old! You never mention this!

2 ) McVey was 19,19, and 20 years old! Once again, Johnson was picking on a youngster.

3 ) Jeannette had a losing record or was close to .500 in many of the matches. Yet he held his own in some of the matches. According to Jeanette, he was never above 170 pounds when he meet Johnson, and certainly lacked experience.

In all these fights ( at least 10 ), Johnson only scored 1 stoppage win, and it was in the last round vs. Mcvey. When Langford, Jeanette and McVey hit their primes ( 1908-1915 ) Johnson would not fight them. Johnson settled for white hopes types. Is it coincidence that Johnson avoided Gunboat Smith, who knocked him silly in their 4 round ex match? I think not! Smith wasn’t a hope. He could fight.

Summary: Johnson skirted his four best challengers as Champion: Langford, Smith, McVey, and Jeannette. What distinguised champion does this? Instead, Johnson was out boxed according to some primary / local sources vs. O’Brien who was a super middle. He was knocked down by another super middle in Ketchel. He drew vs. journeyman Battling Jim Johnson ( NO RE-MATCH GIVEN ), and barely defeated a mere contender type in Moran. The best Johnson fought in a title match was Willard, and he produced a ten count. Color me not impressed with his title opponents, or the results he had.
How much of your post is relevant to the one of mine you replied to?

I'm not even going to respond , your bigoted hatred is beyond farcical. Go look at some more photos of white heavyweights ,and pull your weenie.

INCONVIENET??? DISTINGUISED??? And you're going to educate me?

Last edited by mcvey; 10-12-2012 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:48 AM   #33
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

both of these guys were completed badasses out of the ring.

2 Crazy guys,

Liston may have some early sucess but Johnsons taunting and counter punching may make things hard for Sonny. Im a Liston fan, but i got a feeling Johnson might just hold his number.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

Johnson by whatever he likes. Except fighting at distance and letting Sony jab him to death. barring that Johnson wins.

Oh and this talk of Johnson having on power is simply trash. When he wanted to end fights they usually were ended and ended very convincingly.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:42 PM   #35
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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Johnson by whatever he likes. Except fighting at distance and letting Sony jab him to death. barring that Johnson wins.

Oh and this talk of Johnson having on power is simply trash. When he wanted to end fights they usually were ended and ended very convincingly.
I guess he didn't want to end his fights against Hart, O'Brien, Battling Jim Johnson or Willard.

Even his contemporaries rate his power as decent at best.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:11 PM   #36
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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I guess he didn't want to end his fights against Hart, O'Brien, Battling Jim Johnson or Willard.

Even his contemporaries rate his power as decent at best.

He didn't put Hart away ,and I think he tried early on .
Hart was durable ,and Johnson may have decided to settle for a points decision, when the Kentuckian would not play ball.
Johnson did not try to stop O Brien , there was no incentive to do so, his title was safe as it was a no dec and only a 6 rounder.

Johnson was fighting Battling Jim with a broken arm, so I think we might excuse him for not getting a stoppage.


Johnson tried to stop Willard but ,at 37 and not in shape, he couldn't do it.

Willard had a great chin ,according to Gunboat Smith ,who landed his Sunday punch on him twice with no discernable effect.

Johnson seldom went for the ko anyway, he was content to make his opponents miss, look foolish, but no, his power was not in Liston's league.

I haven't made a pick yet , just sorting the wheat from the chaff.

Last edited by mcvey; 10-12-2012 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:49 PM   #37
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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He didn't put Hart away ,and I think he tried early on .
Hart was durable ,and Johnson may have decided to settle for a points decision, when the Kentuckian would not play ball.
Johnson did not try to stop O Brien , there was no incentive to do so, his title was safe as it was a no dec and only a 6 rounder.

Johnson was fighting Battling Jim with broken arm so I think we might excuse him for not getting a stoppage.


Johnson tried to stop Willard but ,at 37 and not in shape, he couldn't do it.

Willard had a great chin ,according to Gunboat Smith ,who landed his Sunday punch on him twice with no discernable effect.

Johnson seldom went for the ko anyway, he was content to make his opponents miss, look foolish, but no, his power was not in Liston's league.

I haven't made a pick yet , just sorting the wheat from the chaff.
You and I have been over this time and again.

Johnson tired and let Hart do the leading according to all accounts. Hart's aggression definitely displeased Johnson in what was a VERY important fight for him. If he had a Sunday shot, that was the time to use it. And he would have been fighting for the title much earlier.

In the O'Brien affair, you are very selective in choice of source materials. I tend to quote the NYT rendition because it contains the details we see repeated in other articles. O'Brien was jabbing Johnson silly and even groggy a few times, reddening his face and frustrating him. You cite other sources, if I remember correctly. Johnson hurt O'Brien once but could not follow up. Other fighters, some great and some not and almost all smaller than Johnson, had stopped O'Brien in under 6. Ketchel turned the trick in 3 in his next fight, Langford not long after that. Also, O'Brien was very near the end of his long career and should have been ripe for the picking.

In the Battling Jim fight, there are those who claim Johnson's arm was broken early but most say it happened right at the end. He was simply being schooled by a more motivated, aggressive fighter. Again, the NYT article states the crowd booed the decision lustily.

I am looking forward to Adam's book on Johnson to see which sources he endorses. It should be good reading and perhaps he can find some light amidst the murky, and sometimes contradictory, source materials.
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

Battling Jim SCHOOLING Johnson.. Seamus you jest... Please quote any primary source that say this ro anything like this. A plodding big spoiler would never school johnson.. if anything he did just as he usually did.. Spoil.

Johnson beat hart by most accounts I've read and certainly would've beat hart by today's standards. So there is really nothing left to say on this matter. Did he knock him out no.. but not many did.

O'brien.. are we really talking about a 6 round fight in which Johnson was out partying nad drinking the night before and still got the nod on some people cards and was barely trying? Sorry, I don't know how that is proof of Johnson's lack of power.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:10 PM   #39
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

McVey,

Do you or any others have any information on teh Johnson Price fight. Obviously it means nothing. But i had always been told that Walter Price was a flyweight (or might ahve been featherweight) when Johnson lost to him.

But, i just found this description on boxrec.
Boxing Illustrated May 1968 Issue (pp 31-33) entitled "Strickly Off The Record" by Walter M. Price. In the article Price claima he KO'd Johnson. He quotes: "I was 45 and Johnson 56. I weighed 205 and Johnson 257 ...... The place was the basement of a club on Shamute (Shawmut) Avenue, big enough to hold a couple of hundred men ...... The fight was to be no count, to the finish, bare hands, no rounds, one bell to start the fight and one to declare a winner when one man could no longer continue ...... Tom Sprague was the referee ..... Weaving to my left, I stepped in with a fast left hook .... it landed flush on the jaw ... Johnson fell forward .... Rolling over he tried to get up, but fell to a sitting position. ... He rang the bell and shouted, Price in 19 minutes."

Sounds like a complete fabrication to me. But, even if not, note that price was apparently a 200plus fighter for this fight. And then consider that Johnson went 19 minutes (no rounds) with bare knuckles at 60 years of age with a professional fighter who was 200 plus kg and at 250 plus kg it seems that he did so without even training for the fight.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:13 PM   #40
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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You and I have been over this time and again.

Johnson tired and let Hart do the leading according to all accounts. Hart's aggression definitely displeased Johnson in what was a VERY important fight for him. If he had a Sunday shot, that was the time to use it. And he would have been fighting for the title much earlier.

In the O'Brien affair, you are very selective in choice of source materials. I tend to quote the NYT rendition because it contains the details we see repeated in other articles. O'Brien was jabbing Johnson silly and even groggy a few times, reddening his face and frustrating him. You cite other sources, if I remember correctly. Johnson hurt O'Brien once but could not follow up. Other fighters, some great and some not and almost all smaller than Johnson, had stopped O'Brien in under 6. Ketchel turned the trick in 3 in his next fight, Langford not long after that. Also, O'Brien was very near the end of his long career and should have been ripe for the picking.

In the Battling Jim fight, there are those who claim Johnson's arm was broken early but most say it happened right at the end. He was simply being schooled by a more motivated, aggressive fighter. Again, the NYT article states the crowd booed the decision lustily.

I am looking forward to Adam's book on Johnson to see which sources he endorses. It should be good reading and perhaps he can find some light amidst the murky, and sometimes contradictory, source materials.

I'm not aware we have discussed the O Brien fight in any detail,perhaps my age is catching up with me?
I haven't read anywhere that O Brien had Johnson groggy at any time ,and to be frank, I would dismiss it out of hand had I done so.

I've only cited the Box rec sources , because to be honest, I give little importance to the affair ,neither do Ward ,or Roberts, biographers of Johnson.
Adam may differ, we shall have to wait and see. accounyts of the Johnson v Johnson fight detail the champion abruptly changing his tactics,in the second or third round ,[I'm speaking off the top of my head ,] and then sparingly using one arm.This would be consistant with his claim of when the break occurred.
I've also read an account that states Battling JIm was out on his feet at the end,and one that says the champion was all in at the end.
Again it's pay your money and take your choice.
You appear to take always the negative view of Jack Johnson, thats your prerogative.

Newspapers that were represented RINGSIDE,[ not those relying on AP reports,] state that the crowd booed the fight from around the halfway mark,because of the lack of effective action , not because NOT they disagreed with the decision.The again if you have a penchant for interpreting the fight sof Johnson in a certain manner ,you can put what spin you like on it.
No one is going to shoot you for it. Mendoza once asserted that Johnson was stripped of his title by the French Boxing Authorities because of this fight, its easy to say, even though its total bulllshit.

O Brien was just two months older than Johnson ,and while he certainly had more ,mileage on his clock , he was also in better fighting shape than Johnson was for their fight.

To my knowledge, no one has suggested that Johnson was a super power hitter, so I'm a little mystified why you are pursuing this line.
At the end of the day its all " so whattish," isn't it?
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:27 PM   #41
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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Battling Jim SCHOOLING Johnson.. Seamus you jest... Please quote any primary source that say this ro anything like this. A plodding big spoiler would never school johnson.. if anything he did just as he usually did.. Spoil.
"His opponent, three shades blacker, batters him."
"If the bout had gone much further there is little doubt but that the conqueror of Jeffries would have taken the count."
"There was a demand that the admission money be refunded as soon as the referee declared the contest a draw, this ruling meeting with great disfavor."
"Jim Johnson... forced the fighting all the way, making his attack on Jack's stomach. In the seventh round he broke down the champion's guard three times, and each time he followed with terrific uppercuts which grazed Jack's jaw."

In regards to the broken arm.. "It was the general impression among the spectators that the injury had been sustained in the last minute of the fight when Jim rushed Jack to the ropes and the two went to the floor... Both men jumped up quickly... (Jack) tottered to his corner, holding his left arm and declaring it was broken."

Sound as though he were schooled not spoiled.


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Originally Posted by KuRuPT View Post
Johnson beat hart by most accounts I've read and certainly would've beat hart by today's standards.
Sounds like you have seen the fight. I have only read about it but it sounds as though Jack took the lead and then did not press the issue, allowing Hart to lead and win over by aggression, which at the time and with the ref being the decider was basis for awarding the victory. With so much on the line (a potential title shot) Johnson needed to close the show. Or perhaps he should have scheduled the fight for a hundred years later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KuRuPT View Post
O'brien.. are we really talking about a 6 round fight in which Johnson was out partying nad drinking the night before and still got the nod on some people cards and was barely trying? Sorry, I don't know how that is proof of Johnson's lack of power.
Should I break out my violin with each Johnson excuse for his poor performances? I'd have blisters on my fingers. It was a TITLE DEFENSE. He got outworked and outhit by a spindly, shopworn lightheavy who couldn't break an egg.
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Old 10-12-2012, 06:20 PM   #42
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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McVey,

Do you or any others have any information on teh Johnson Price fight. Obviously it means nothing. But i had always been told that Walter Price was a flyweight (or might ahve been featherweight) when Johnson lost to him.

But, i just found this description on boxrec.
Boxing Illustrated May 1968 Issue (pp 31-33) entitled "Strickly Off The Record" by Walter M. Price. In the article Price claima he KO'd Johnson. He quotes: "I was 45 and Johnson 56. I weighed 205 and Johnson 257 ...... The place was the basement of a club on Shamute (Shawmut) Avenue, big enough to hold a couple of hundred men ...... The fight was to be no count, to the finish, bare hands, no rounds, one bell to start the fight and one to declare a winner when one man could no longer continue ...... Tom Sprague was the referee ..... Weaving to my left, I stepped in with a fast left hook .... it landed flush on the jaw ... Johnson fell forward .... Rolling over he tried to get up, but fell to a sitting position. ... He rang the bell and shouted, Price in 19 minutes."

Sounds like a complete fabrication to me. But, even if not, note that price was apparently a 200plus fighter for this fight. And then consider that Johnson went 19 minutes (no rounds) with bare knuckles at 60 years of age with a professional fighter who was 200 plus kg and at 250 plus kg it seems that he did so without even training for the fight.
I have this magazine, the fight may well have happened, what importance should be given to a 60 years old ex champ being beaten in a saloon fight by an also ran is up to the individual,[unless you are Mendoza,]. I remember at the end of the story ,as Price tells it, a friend of his says after the fight," you were not in his class".
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:18 AM   #43
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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"His opponent, three shades blacker, batters him."
"If the bout had gone much further there is little doubt but that the conqueror of Jeffries would have taken the count."
"There was a demand that the admission money be refunded as soon as the referee declared the contest a draw, this ruling meeting with great disfavor."
"Jim Johnson... forced the fighting all the way, making his attack on Jack's stomach. In the seventh round he broke down the champion's guard three times, and each time he followed with terrific uppercuts which grazed Jack's jaw."

In regards to the broken arm.. "It was the general impression among the spectators that the injury had been sustained in the last minute of the fight when Jim rushed Jack to the ropes and the two went to the floor... Both men jumped up quickly... (Jack) tottered to his corner, holding his left arm and declaring it was broken."

Sound as though he were schooled not spoiled.



Sounds like you have seen the fight. I have only read about it but it sounds as though Jack took the lead and then did not press the issue, allowing Hart to lead and win over by aggression, which at the time and with the ref being the decider was basis for awarding the victory. With so much on the line (a potential title shot) Johnson needed to close the show. Or perhaps he should have scheduled the fight for a hundred years later.



Should I break out my violin with each Johnson excuse for his poor performances? I'd have blisters on my fingers. It was a TITLE DEFENSE. He got outworked and outhit by a spindly, shopworn lightheavy who couldn't break an egg.
As can be clearly seen the booing began DURING the fight and was NOT a protest about the decision

"Jack Johnson, the heavyweight champion, and Battling Jim Johnson, another colored pugilist, of Galveston, Texas, met in a ten-round contest here tonight, which ended in a draw. The spectators loudly protested throughout that the men were not fighting, and demanded their money back. Many of them left the hall. The organizers of the fight explained the fiasco by asserting that Jack Johnson's left arm was broken in the third round. There is no confirmation of a report that Jack Johnson had been stabbed, and no evidence at the ringside of such an accident. During the first three rounds he was obviously playing with his opponent. After that it was observed that he was only using his right hand. When the fight was over he complained that his arm had been injured. Doctors who made an examination certified to a slight fracture of the radius of the left arm. The general opinion is that his arm was injured in a wrestling match early in the week, and that a blow tonight caused the fracture of the bone"

More spin shot down.


This link give s a verdict on the Hart Johnson fight .

Its a bit different to your interpretation.

[No surprise there then]
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If Johnson had beaten Hart ,I'll rephrase that, if he had received the decision, do you really think Jeffries would have given him a title shot?
Because he is on record prior to the fight stating he would not.
I could produce accounts of the Battling Johnson fight that state the champion had his man groggy at the end , but you would ignore them so there is no point.

You are like Mendoza, you only believe what you want to,and what your agenda indicates you should .

You pick a defence in which Johnson was nearly 36, had been out of the ring for a year and a half and was fighting with a broken arm?
.
I dont know what you think you are achieving with this ,do you believe Johnson going the ten rounds distance with a broken arm indicates that Liston beats him?

Should I say Liston quit twice therefore Johnson beats him?

George Siler was ringside for the Hart fight he called it a very curious decision by the referee, Johnson won the first 10 rounds according to some reports if he won any after that he should have got the verdict.
When you stated O Brien had Johnson groggy a couple of times ,comon-sense should have told me to disengage with you.I've only myself to blame for this waste of time.
This is going nowhere and is therefore pointless.

Last edited by mcvey; 10-13-2012 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:33 AM   #44
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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If Johnson had beaten Hart ,I'll rephrase that, if he had received the decision, do you really think Jeffries would have given him a title shot?
Because he is on record prior to the fight stating he would not.
I could produce accounts of the Battling Johnson fight that state the champion had his man groggy at the end , but you would ignore them so there is no point ,you are like Mendoza, you only believe what you want to,and what your agenda indicates you should .
Utter shite on two levels. I produced a report wired from Paris to New York that states the exact opposite of what you say you can produce regarding the Johnson/Johnson affair. And for the record, I am nothing like any other poster on this board so stop that shit in its tracks.

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I dont know what you think you are achieving with this ,do you believe Johnson going the ten rounds distance with a broken arm indicates trhat Liston beats him? Should I say Liston quit twice therfore Johnson beats him?
The reports I have read state that the arm was broken in the final round when Jim fell backward while Jack had his arms locked around Jim's back. Jack rose and for the first time complained of a broken arm. What I aim to suggest is that Johnson was not all that great against motivated, larger, practiced (not retired) foes, that he was sporadic in his greatness and untrustworthy to produce an excellent result in a given bout.

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
George Siler was ringside for the Hart fight he called it a very curious decision by the referee, Johnson wonthe first 10 rounds according to some reports if he won any after that he should have got the verdict.

This is going nowhere and is therefore pointless.
That was a moment for Johnson to shine but he could not decisively overcome a tough but rather pedestrian Hart. The very greatest of champions rise to such occasions; Johnson did not.

Look, we may be splicing cunt hairs here. I still have Johnson on the cusp of my top ten. But when included he remains the fighter with the most caveats and excuses regarding his performances that I would ever allow. It's simply beyond credulity that so many of his performances need such allowances.

Perhaps Pollack's next book will shed more light and I will change my opinion. Contrary to what you think of me, I am still open minded in this regard.
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:45 AM   #45
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

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Utter shite on two levels. I produced a report wired from Paris to New York that states the exact opposite of what you say you can produce regarding the Johnson/Johnson affair. And for the record, I am nothing like any other poster on this board so stop that shit in its tracks.



The reports I have read state that the arm was broken in the final round when Jim fell backward while Jack had his arms locked around Jim's back. Jack rose and for the first time complained of a broken arm. What I aim to suggest is that Johnson was not all that great against motivated, larger, practiced (not retired) foes, that he was sporadic in his greatness and untrustworthy to produce an excellent result in a given bout.



That was a moment for Johnson to shine but he could not decisively overcome a tough but rather pedestrian Hart. The very greatest of champions rise to such occasions; Johnson did not.

Look, we may be splicing cunt hairs here. I still have Johnson on the cusp of my top ten. But when included he remains the fighter with the most caveats and excuses regarding his performances that I would ever allow. It's simply beyond credulity that so many of his performances need such allowances.

Perhaps Pollack's next book will shed more light and I will change my opinion. Contrary to what you think of me, I am still open minded in this regard.
No ,you wont change your opinion ,you have a closed mind.Read the link on the Hart fight.


The link below gives Jeffries reaction to Johnson ,koing Denver Ed Martin for over ten minutes and then challenging him.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I don't care if Johnson licks the whole Japanese Navy I won't fight a black man .
Some World Champ
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PS The N Y Times did not have a reporter at the Johnson v Johnson fight ,you are quoting an A P wire report.

This is from the Indianapolis Star who DID have a reporter ringside.

While the Johnson v. Johnson fight had been billed as a world heavyweight title match, in many ways, it resembled an exhibition. A sportswriter from the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_Star"]Indianapolis Star[/ame] at the fight reported that the crowd became unruly when it was apparent that neither boxer was putting up a fight.
"Jack Johnson, the heavyweight champion, and Battling Jim Johnson, another coloured pugilist, of Galveston, Texas, met in a 10-round contest here tonight, which ended in a draw. The spectators loudly protested throughout that the men were not fighting, and demanded their money back. Many of them left the hall. The organizers of the fight explained the fiasco by asserting that Jack Johnson's left arm was broken in the third round. There is no confirmation of a report that Jack Johnson had been stabbed and no evidence at the ringside of such an accident. During the first three rounds he was obviously playing with his opponent. After that it was observed that he was only using his right hand. When the fight was over he complained that his arm had been injured. Doctors who made an examination, certified to a slight fracture of the radius of the left arm. The general opinion is that his arm was injured in a wrestling match early in the week, and that a blow tonight caused the fracture of the bone."[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Because of the draw, Jack Johnson kept his championship. After the fight, he explained that his left arm was injured in the third round and he could not use it.

Last edited by mcvey; 10-13-2012 at 03:04 PM.
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Boxing News 24 Forum 2013