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Old 10-13-2012, 10:48 PM   #16
sugarngold
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

Just youtube search for Kyokushin KO's or kicks and you'll find a ton of videos.

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Old 10-14-2012, 11:49 AM   #17
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

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Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
Roach, why don't you give it a try and find out? At my old gym we had a national savate champion and he was REALLY tough to spar. Kicks coming from every angle. The thing about standing in a boxing/kickboxing/savate stance that's more angled and less square than a wrestling/MT stance is that it leaves your lead leg more exposed for takedowns and leg kicks. It's also not that easy to say "the sport version doesn't have knees or lots of leg kicks, but you can learn them etc" because a lot of the techniques of any sport/martial art are optimized according to making them successful within the rules of the sport.

If what you care about is MMA then train everything at once so that you always keep in mind what doesn't work in that set of rules. It may be that you can do best with boxing or savate instead of MT, but maybe in trying it out you'll see why everyone mostly goes with it.
I don't understand why you say it leaves your leg more open to leg kicks when in the videos I posted, both guys could utilize leg kicks, but the Savate guy was in no more danger than the Muy Thai practitioner?

I mean, is it really necessary to stand squared up?

I don't see Anderson Silva standing squared up, nor Rampage.

Doesn't getting out of the way of a single leg take down come down more to the athlete rather than the style?

I mean, if you have slow reactions, you get taken down, right?

You said the Savate practitioner was very hard to spar, so why would you give the impression that Muy Thai is superior?

Wouldn't it be best to learn both, but utilize the Savate stance and footwork from a distance, and utilize either boxing or Muy Thai from up close?

I mean, I understand that Muy Thai has knees, but I've seen a guy get knocked out when he put somebody in a clinch, by the other guy who was throwing fast, short hooks.

I mean if you're strength is stand up, woudln't it be best to keep your distance and range, and if you get inside, typically against a guy rangier than you, would you want to try to knee him anyway?

Probably not right?

I mean, I've never seen anybody attempt to knee Jon Jones. In fact, the only way Jon Jones may be beatable is to catch him with a counter hook and hope he doesn't have a chin.

You're not going to beat him at a distance, and you can't knee him, so what good is Muy Thai knees?

I mean, the only time I really see Muy Thai knees work is when a guy is rushing in with his head down.

And I know you said, "it's easy to say, you can just learn knees," but what is there really?

I mean, it's pretty simple isn't it? It's not like it's rocket science. You just lock the guy behind his neck and drive your knee up. That's pretty simple.

In contrast, counterpunching and counterkicking someone like Savate emphasizes, that takes skill.

Am I wrong?

And I know you say, most people go with Muy Thai, but you know as well as I do, that most people don't really have much natural fluidity or rhthymm, so they would naturally be inclined to gravitate towards something that to me looks like it comes down to who can kick or punch the hardest or who can take the most punishment.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:57 AM   #18
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

You seem set on thinking savate is better so we cant change your mind. I believe its Muay Thai still.
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

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You seem set on thinking savate is better so we cant change your mind. I believe its Muay Thai still.
I want to learn one of these disciplines, but I don't want to waste my time learing a discipline that is made for people that fight like Margarito.

If that is a prerequisite for Muy Thai, what is the point of me learning it?

To be honest, just like boxing, I want to get the most out of it, learn how to do it, get some sparring in if not one fight, and then practice it through shadow boxing (shadow kicking? do people do this?), and bag work.

I just want to have it in my arsenal in case I need it. But I box intelligently. I try to counter, and while I feel like I can punch very hard for my weightclass, I don't fight with a style of just reckless abandonment.

You see what I'm saying?

What good is it learing a fighting style that leaves you a broken old man? I mean, I understand that if I'm not going pro, but how good is a style that breaks down your body?

It seems like Savate emphsasizes skill and precision while Muy Thai emphasizes just blind power and taking punishment.

Skill and intellect usually wins out. Look at Anderson Silva. He's not always the strongest, fastest, or hardest puncher, yet he wins consistantly.

I know Wilhelm said that Savate doesn't use leg kicks, but in videos I watch of it, I see them leg kicking all the time.

And he just told me that the Savate guy was very hard to spar.

So I'm perplexed. If Savate routinely wins out against Muy Thai, why learn a weaker discpline?
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

For 90%, maybe even 99%, it is Muay Thai. It is efficent and affective. No fancy shit, very practicle and very painful. It is the fundamentals of kicking and the most enforcable for your average joe. Then you've got the Cung Les, Silvas, GSPs etc who employ a dynamic yet affective kicking arsenal. They switch between scoring shots and finishing shots and misleading shots and break them down shots.

So I'd tell everyone Muay Thai and then the dynamic kicking arts are yet to have one leading the way because they all appear to be quite effective and similar - Kung Fu, Karate, TKD etc
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:52 PM   #21
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

Muay Thai. I've said this before, but when you look back to the earliest days of MMA, you had all kinds of disciplines being used, after a couple of years the ineffective ones were weeded out which left us with what we see today - boxing, kickboxing and Muay Thai for stand up and wrestling, BJJ and to a lesser extent Judo for grappling. Most of the eastern dosciplines were shown up for the dancing, prancing, posing shit that they are.
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:35 PM   #22
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

I understand that disdain for most kicking arts, but why Savate?

It appears there is a quite a bit of ignorance regarding this art. It seems like it has few, but effective kicks, and is based on countering your opponent.

I don't understand why people rule out Savate?

Wouldn't it be smart to utilize both Savate and Muy Thai?

Is there anybody that can break this down and emphasize the strengths and weaknesses of both martial arts?
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:13 AM   #23
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

For the most part, "what kicking art is the best" becomes a redundant term when you don't take into account the expertise, skill and condition of the person using such art. There have been many issue of style vs style match-up and you will always get mixed results of one practitioner beating another in a style vs style match up.

The main question would be "what are you trying to achieve":

Muay Thai and Kyokushin combined basic skill with very hard hitting techniques - you don't need to be very flexible to be able to perform a good teep, roundhouse etc but can still deliver hard power with practice. You also won't see a Muay Thai or Kyokushin fighter really taking a backward step, both are a solid stance martial art.

Savate and kickboxing again have the same basic techniques as the above but are more fluid in terms of the stance and movement.

Some Karate styles and TKD are more of a "bouncey" (I use this term loosely) martial stance geared around points fighting but can still deliver hard kicks.

At the end of the day it comes down to how the person using the technique can deliver it effectively. As Bruce Lee once said "I fear not the man who has practised 10000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10000 times."
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:56 PM   #24
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

Oh man it has to be Muay Thai

Leg kicks, knees and elbows are just to big a weapon/s for it to be anything else
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:57 PM   #25
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannytsg View Post
For the most part, "what kicking art is the best" becomes a redundant term when you don't take into account the expertise, skill and condition of the person using such art. There have been many issue of style vs style match-up and you will always get mixed results of one practitioner beating another in a style vs style match up.

The main question would be "what are you trying to achieve":

Muay Thai and Kyokushin combined basic skill with very hard hitting techniques - you don't need to be very flexible to be able to perform a good teep, roundhouse etc but can still deliver hard power with practice. You also won't see a Muay Thai or Kyokushin fighter really taking a backward step, both are a solid stance martial art.

Savate and kickboxing again have the same basic techniques as the above but are more fluid in terms of the stance and movement.

Some Karate styles and TKD are more of a "bouncey" (I use this term loosely) martial stance geared around points fighting but can still deliver hard kicks.

At the end of the day it comes down to how the person using the technique can deliver it effectively. As Bruce Lee once said "I fear not the man who has practised 10000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10000 times."
Welcome to the forum

Excellent post
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:09 PM   #26
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

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Oh man it has to be Muay Thai

Leg kicks, knees and elbows are just to big a weapon/s for it to be anything else
Everyone talks about this, but I rarely ever see knees or elbows being implemented in a fight.

If a guy gets that close, they are usually pushed against the cage at close quarters...

Okay, I take that back, they are kneeing eachother in the legs, but how much technique does that take? Isn't that something that would just come natural? It's like, hmmmm....I can't use my arms because I'm using them to hold on to my opponent...I can't kick because I'm too close....so, I'll use knees.

That doesn't require much skill. That's mostly instinct. I mean, don't get me wrong, you need the balance, but every martial art has balance. If you don't have balance, it doesn't matter what you do, you're never going to be any good.

So while Muy Thai has more weapons, you can only utilize them up close and by that time, your opponent typically tries to grapple you and the fight ends up on the floor or against the cage.

Stand up is mostly utilized on the outiside. That's where you're most effective, unless you can catch somebody with some short hooks on the inside, but like I said, by that time, your opponent will typically grapple you.

So, why does Savate not get very much credit when it appears to be more fluid and geared towards counterpunching and defense than does Muy Thai?
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

Savate is quite simply out of date. Worked well against 1970's and 80's kickboxers but falls apart in Thai rules.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:32 PM   #28
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

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Savate is quite simply out of date. Worked well against 1970's and 80's kickboxers but falls apart in Thai rules.
Can you elaborate on this?

It seems like Savate would be the best stand up for MMA considering it's fluid and based on countering your opponent, and footwork.

To me, knees are instinctive. If your opponents head is down, it's instinctive to push his head into your knee.

You learned that move in grade school.

If you're against a good fighter though, he won't put himself in that position in the first place unless he's hurt or Brock Lesnar who is afraid to take punches.

And when you're up close and your arms are occupied and your opponent is kneeing you, it's common sense to knee him back or do one of those judo trips that I often see.

Am I wrong?

So why would Savate lose against Muy Thai when the video I posted was the best Muy Thai fighter against the best Savate fighter in a K1 rules match, and the Savate fighter whupped his ass.

So, wouldn't it be logical that Savate would be the optimal art for MMA unless you're the type of fighter that doesn't like to move and will take a punch or kick to deliver a punch or kick?

Or a Margaritoesque type of fighter?

Can you elaborate one the strengths and weaknesses of Savate? I mean, I'm just trying to get a handle on which one I should learn if I should consider either.

I know that there is a Chinese martial art that was made to fight the Thais, specifically geared to fight against Muy Thai.

Perhaps that is where Savate got its roots from? I heard that it was the Chinese that fought French Sailors, and the Sailors initially punched, but added kicking to their regiment.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

Too many assumptions in your post regarding Muay Thai - you need to do your own research or if your mind is set on Savate just do it.

The rest of the world figured out which is best - you will too.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:50 PM   #30
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Default Re: What is the best kicking martial art?

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Too many assumptions in your post regarding Muay Thai - you need to do your own research or if your mind is set on Savate just do it.

The rest of the world figured out which is best - you will too.
Why can't anybody elaborate?

Can you at least say why Muy Thai is superior? Does it have to do with the kicks?

The angles?

What?

To me, it sounds like people are just ignorant.
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