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Old 10-17-2012, 06:40 AM   #181
Senya13
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

Take the fighters, who are among those with the most rounds fought (based on what's on boxrec), Len Wickwar, Billy Bird, Arnold Sheppard, George Marsden, Bert Ison, etc. One would think that, with literally thousands of rounds of experience, they'd stop losing to nonentities with hardly a hundred rounds under their belt. But they did, and did often. The matter of a lot of real fighting experience is not as important as some people want to believe.

You may learn a lot in the first several fights, but after that, it's common thing, you almost stop learning something new, unless the circumstances change dramatically. There can be exceptions, of course, but absolute majority of fighters quickly reached their abilities' limit and were unable to improve above it, no matter how many times they went into the ring. In case of great fighters, they usually showed their worth from the very beginning, when they still had little experience.

Same thing happens with job. Immediately after your start you learn a lot, but after that most people almost stop improving and learning (while at the same job and specialty).
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:30 AM   #182
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Also, watching a fight in person>Video.
No and there's a good reason video evidence is stronger evidence than testimony from memory in court, aside from any dishonesty of the testimony. A human's memory can play tricks on them, they forget things and there is the bias of perception and environment

In a fight you are strongly influenced by the crowd and you generally don't have the best view. It's a better atmosphere but in terms of analysing boxers, it isn't usually the best
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:42 AM   #183
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No way these guys are on steroids.

The K bros work harder, more consistently, and with more dedication, then ANY fighter I have EVER seen, bar Evander Holyfield, and I would easily say they work SMARTER than Evander.

These guys are also gentleman. They define integrity. They treat everybody around them with respect, and view themselves as sportsman. Doctors in sports medicine, who have invested brilliantly, own large parts of their home region, and are adored public figures. I've never seen a needle, and I wasn't with them privately day in and day out, but if I have met or seen ANY fighter I would refuse to believe uses steroids, it'd be the guys in the gym 8 hours a day, busting their asses with the most expensive looking machinery I've ever seen.

I know what it took to get as big and muscular as I am, and it's totally doable without steroids, which would have been a massive health risk for me. You just have to know how, and you have to execute.

I'll give the K Bros more credit as men then any boxer I've ever met. They just so happen to be among the 3 or 4 best fighters I've ever shared a ring with.
If they did invest in all that equipment and have all the knowledge wouldn't they be more inclined to use steroids, knowing the benefits and the fact it can make them the best they can be? Also with the knowledge many in HW boxing do use steroids, in a way it levels the playing field and doesn't detract from them

Why do you say you'd have had issues using steroids, do you have liver issues?

I'm not that bothered about PEDs, I use stims before workouts all the time and feel all the better for it
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:43 AM   #184
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
Take the fighters, who are among those with the most rounds fought (based on what's on boxrec), Len Wickwar, Billy Bird, Arnold Sheppard, George Marsden, Bert Ison, etc. One would think that, with literally thousands of rounds of experience, they'd stop losing to nonentities with hardly a hundred rounds under their belt. But they did, and did often. The matter of a lot of real fighting experience is not as important as some people want to believe.
If you're shit you're shit.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:53 AM   #185
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If you're shit you're shit.
This.

And PP I agree as I've had first hand experience with that myself but I have also heard accounts from people who say the contrary. For once I went with what I've heard rather than my own (probably skewed) ideas.

EDIT: I'd also say more unknown elements meant you had to be more versatile. Late notice fights, spotting your opponent weight, all prevalent positives on many of the 'old time great' ring records'.

Last edited by Flea Man; 10-17-2012 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:35 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
If they did invest in all that equipment and have all the knowledge wouldn't they be more inclined to use steroids, knowing the benefits and the fact it can make them the best they can be? Also with the knowledge many in HW boxing do use steroids, in a way it levels the playing field and doesn't detract from them

Why do you say you'd have had issues using steroids, do you have liver issues?

I'm not that bothered about PEDs, I use stims before workouts all the time and feel all the better for it
Lemme tell you what, man...

I've experimented with all kinds of body composition. I'm pretty lucky genetically in this regard; I can build fast and healthy, and I can shave fast and healthy. But, my proclivity when working out and training is to hulk up. I would say bulk up, but the proper term is hulk up. I have to be SO careful when I train; If I just cut loose and bust my ass for 6 hours, 2 hours lifting, I get big as a house in a hurry.

More muscle is a chore. I've had a ton of it before; I looked like an Adonis and all the ladies loved me. But man alive, did I feel slow, and my arms FELT heavier. Its hard hauling all the muscle around when you box. The bigger I am, the harder it was to be effective.

All the steroids made available to me would have exacerbated my stamina issues and my size issues. The muscle building, which I already do way better and easier than I would like, would just be insane.

Though, you bring up a good point...I have lived a fun life. My liver looks like desert camo, most likely, by now. Probably good I didn't mess with it further than attempting to murder it every weekend for 10 years.
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:39 PM   #187
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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Weak. It's like me asking you - how many championships have you won?

You can approximate live fire scenarios in sparring. People get hurt and knocked out in sparring all the time, ask Chad Dawson. If instead of learning the skills, you just work out and have 3 fights a month, it's not going to work. You talk about mechanics unraveling under fire, but what's going to happen if you don't have the mechanics in the first place? I agree that you gain comfort and nuance from actual fights, but all the comfort and nuance in the world wouldn't have helped Gatti against Mayweather.
Any trainer using live fire gym warring is not running his sparring sessions right. Some of the best fighters I know got used up in the gym because of that type of work.

Mechanics are learned in the gym AND in live fire. You learn what works and what doesn't really quick when a big, angry, fat guy is trying to club you like a baby seal.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:13 PM   #188
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Lemme tell you what, man...

I've experimented with all kinds of body composition. I'm pretty lucky genetically in this regard; I can build fast and healthy, and I can shave fast and healthy. But, my proclivity when working out and training is to hulk up. I would say bulk up, but the proper term is hulk up. I have to be SO careful when I train; If I just cut loose and bust my ass for 6 hours, 2 hours lifting, I get big as a house in a hurry.

More muscle is a chore. I've had a ton of it before; I looked like an Adonis and all the ladies loved me. But man alive, did I feel slow, and my arms FELT heavier. Its hard hauling all the muscle around when you box. The bigger I am, the harder it was to be effective.

All the steroids made available to me would have exacerbated my stamina issues and my size issues. The muscle building, which I already do way better and easier than I would like, would just be insane.

Though, you bring up a good point...I have lived a fun life. My liver looks like desert camo, most likely, by now. Probably good I didn't mess with it further than attempting to murder it every weekend for 10 years.
You have no idea how much I envy you right now
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:16 PM   #189
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

A fair bit of training time dedicated to weight cutting across the board nowadays, moreso than ever it would seem, caused by the rules enabling it to be done more freely and some would say more extremely.

Another reason why a lot of guys can't fight so regularly.
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:21 PM   #190
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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You have no idea how much I envy you right now
My hair is like wire and I need truckloads of deodorant.

I also can't sing.

That help?
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:46 PM   #191
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

The difference is in the past every city had many great boxing gyms populated with excellent trainers. In eras prior to the modern social programs you had to be tough to survive and those that rose to the top were the toughest of the tough. There was also an emphasis on the finer points of the game so lost talents such as feinting, blocking,slipping and countering to vital areas of the body. Watch closely as an example the skill of Langford to move step wise into a larger opponent guard, Dempsey bobbing and weaving and feinting to freeze his opponent allowing him to land short ko blows to the body and head. Louis blocking shots and countering with 4, 5, 6 counter blows. There is a lack of great trainers and with this a huge lack of really talented fighters. This is seen to a great extent in the hwt division where fans are at a point where they are so impressed with the size of very inept low skilled fighter. Finally the divisions have been so watered down due to the ease of being able to win a championship.....nearly everyone can win a paper title and call themselves a champion there is little need to hone difficult to attain skills
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Old 10-17-2012, 03:41 PM   #192
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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The difference is in the past every city had many great boxing gyms populated with excellent trainers. In eras prior to the modern social programs you had to be tough to survive and those that rose to the top were the toughest of the tough. There was also an emphasis on the finer points of the game so lost talents such as feinting, blocking,slipping and countering to vital areas of the body. Watch closely as an example the skill of Langford to move step wise into a larger opponent guard, Dempsey bobbing and weaving and feinting to freeze his opponent allowing him to land short ko blows to the body and head. Louis blocking shots and countering with 4, 5, 6 counter blows. There is a lack of great trainers and with this a huge lack of really talented fighters. This is seen to a great extent in the hwt division where fans are at a point where they are so impressed with the size of very inept low skilled fighter. Finally the divisions have been so watered down due to the ease of being able to win a championship.....nearly everyone can win a paper title and call themselves a champion there is little need to hone difficult to attain skills
H, WELL SAID
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:12 PM   #193
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Lemme tell you what, man...

I've experimented with all kinds of body composition. I'm pretty lucky genetically in this regard; I can build fast and healthy, and I can shave fast and healthy. But, my proclivity when working out and training is to hulk up. I would say bulk up, but the proper term is hulk up. I have to be SO careful when I train; If I just cut loose and bust my ass for 6 hours, 2 hours lifting, I get big as a house in a hurry.
Same here but I like to do strength training. I hate being tight and stiff but I also hate not being strong enough. How do you stay strong but not get totally yoked?
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:21 PM   #194
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Default Re: How were old timers so good?

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Same here but I like to do strength training. I hate being tight and stiff but I also hate not being strong enough. How do you stay strong but not get totally yoked?
Because I can't ever avoid being yoked

Old school training helps. Something the old-timers didn't actually have to deal with is all this modern weight equipment. The knee and joint injuries I bitch about? They could either retire, or suck it up and change it up.

They probably ate better, too. Or less. Much less.

I like steak. That can't help.
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:39 AM   #195
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This, so much this. So, so much, this. Bodhi is as correct as he can be.

I've always said that my time in the gym was high school.

My 200+ fights were college, grad school, and my damn dissertation.
How important is the amateur background when you turn pro? How much have all those amateur fights taught you generally?
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