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Old 10-18-2012, 08:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
Its purely physics. Strength has nothing to do with it.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Example: A box weighs 2lbs. If you throw it at 30mph its going to generate the same amount of force every single time you throw it. The only way it gains more force is if the weight of the box is increased or the speed increases.

It doesn't matter who throws the box, a strong man or a child, the result will be the same (assuming the weight and speed are the same).

In punching proper technique allows you to leverage more of your body weight into the punch and to generate more velocity by using your hips and legs.


This video explains it a little better:

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Thanks for your answer mate! Can you explain the following tho?

So how do you explain a guy like george forman hitting harder than mike Tyson, depite both men in their prime weighing the same and Tyson being MUCH faster with better technique and George being slow?

Can you explain why Earnie Shavers hit the hardest out of everyone despite not weighing much for a HW and despite not being that fast?

Can you explain why rocky marciano hit so hard for am man his size who was small and no especially fast.

Can you explain why Julian Jackson hit so much harder than Roy Jones Jr despite weighing less and being slower, ?
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:03 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
Its purely physics. Strength has nothing to do with it.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Example: A box weighs 2lbs. If you throw it at 30mph its going to generate the same amount of force every single time you throw it. The only way it gains more force is if the weight of the box is increased or the speed increases.
But you're forgetting about the delivery of the force. If the box is fairly soft, and partially crumples on impact, while it may still deliver the same amount of force in total it will do so at a slightly slower rate than if the box were completely solid with no "give" in its structure.

Now, it's an incredible over-simplification but it may be necessary to illustrate the point - two guys, same mass, throw a punch but one has a weak arm and one a strong arm. The boxer with the strong arm hits with a very solid, rigid arm that successfully transfers all of his power to his opponent, in an instant. The other guy hits, but instead of delivering all of the force at the end of a solid arm, his weaker arm "buckles", and force is absorbed by his elbow joint, shoulder joint etc.

Of course in reality a great deal more parts of your body than just your arm are important for delivering the force of your punch. There are many links along the chain that could be weak and reduce the impact.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:04 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by OMGWTF View Post
Thanks for your answer mate! Can you explain the following tho?

So how do you explain a guy like george forman hitting harder than mike Tyson, depite both men in their prime weighing the same and Tyson being MUCH faster with better technique and George being slow?

Can you explain why Earnie Shavers hit the hardest out of everyone despite not weighing much for a HW and despite not being that fast?

Can you explain why rocky marciano hit so hard for am man his size who was small and no especially fast.

Can you explain why Julian Jackson hit so much harder than Roy Jones Jr despite weighing less and being slower, ?
Tendon properties, level of CNS activation, muscle wisdom, technique, lack of co-activation, muscle pennation, fascicle length, point of tendon insertion, muscle stiffness etc. etc.

This is a stupid question that can't be answered (especially not with the level of understanding being displayed here) because there are too many factors and individual circumstances. But if you'd like to listen to idiots claim that it's all about a simple equation like body weight x velocity then go ahead.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:06 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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But you're forgetting about the delivery of the force. If the box is fairly soft, and partially crumples on impact, while it may still deliver the same amount of force in total it will do so at a slightly slower rate than if the box were completely solid with no "give" in its structure.

Now, it's an incredible over-simplification but it may be necessary to illustrate the point - two guys, same mass, throw a punch but one has a weak arm and one a strong arm. The boxer with the strong arm hits with a very solid, rigid arm that successfully transfers all of his power to his opponent, in an instant. The other guy hits, but instead of delivering all of the force at the end of a solid arm, his weaker arm "buckles", and force is absorbed by his elbow joint, shoulder joint etc.

Of course in reality a great deal more parts of your body than just your arm are important for delivering the force of your punch. There are many links along the chain that could be weak and reduce the impact.
You're right in a way, for all high speed movements the greater the isometric contraction at the distal ends of the link the more the force is transferred to the tendons, which then recoil at a higher speed with higher force (as long as the muscle-tendon unit is stiff enough).
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:09 PM   #20
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
Tendon properties, level of CNS activation, muscle wisdom, technique, lack of co-activation, muscle pennation, fascicle length, point of tendon insertion, muscle stiffness etc. etc.

This is a stupid question that can't be answered (especially not with the level of understanding being displayed here) because there are too many factors and individual circumstances. But if you'd like to listen to idiots claim that it's all about a simple equation like body weight x velocity then go ahead.
Nice, is there anyway to get a full picture of what makes a powerful punch with all the factors included, or is it simply not known to anyone?

How do you find out the answer to this complex question? What do you study to know? Is there any literature specific in answering this question or is it mainly theories and no one really knows?
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by OMGWTF View Post
Nice, is there anyway to get a full picture of what makes a powerful punch with all the factors included, or is it simply not known to anyone?

How do you find out the answer to this complex question? What do you study to know? Is there any literature specific in answering this question or is it mainly theories and no one really knows?
No, you can't know and anybody who says that you can is lying. There are plenty of theories but a lot of research needs to be done still before you can conclusively say "This is the recipe for power".
What is known is that for a throwing motion like a punch is that forces are summated and that your tendons multiply the speed and power. What this means is that your muscles need to perform work on preferably stiff tendons (Think of them as a thick rubber band), your muscles need to hold force at a high level to stretch and transfer the energy to your tendons.
When you punch you generate force by pushing into the ground and transferring that force through your mid section before releasing it through your arm. The stretch between your hips and shoulders is extremely important, your hips need to stop before your shoulder twists into the punch; this ensures that you get a good stretch and recoil through your midsection.
I believe that's where a lot of fighters fail in their punching chain, boxers are always taught that power comes from the legs and being fast... You see fast guys like Bradley or Malignaggi and people ask why they can't punch, they tend to punch with their hips and shoulders moving at the same time. You then look at someone like Golovkin or Pacman and you'll see that their hips are always very stable at the time they release their hands.
Bradley and co. look fast but their fist at the point of impact isn't accelerating like Golovkin's or Julian Jacksons is.
Golovkin and co. are multiplying their force through a throwing motion throughout the punch, Bradley and co. are moving quickly but pushing it from the waist up so forces don't summate.
It's a coordination/motor movement issue primarily but strength is very important as well.
It's not about how fast a guy is from A to B, it's about what is happening at the point of impact.
A guy might be big and slow looking but if you look at how efficiently he summates his forces through the mechanisms I talked about then he may be a devastating puncher and his fist might be moving a lot faster at the point of impact than a guy like Andre Ward who is a fast body mover but again is slowly pushing a punch at the point of impact.
Look at any good puncher form Foreman to Jackson and you'll notice the stability of the hips and that their fist seems to be gaining something as they're still connecting.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

The recipe for power is God. If God chooses that you have power, you have it.

Everything that you have, God chose for you.

If you want the answer, read the Gospel.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:38 PM   #23
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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The recipe for power is God. If God chooses that you have power, you have it.

Everything that you have, God chose for you.

If you want the answer, read the Gospel.
**** off troll. Plus everyone knows the real answer is in the Koran. Or the Sunday Times.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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**** off troll. Plus everyone knows the real answer is in the Koran. Or the Sunday Times.
Why do you call me a troll? Just because my training methods differ from yours, doesn't mean I'm a troll.

I did lift weights for a decade.

I got solid numbers, high pfp strength. But thank God I switched to calesthenics.

You know, it was a blessing that I found out about advanced calesthenics.

Hopefully, you find out about it too. Good luck and God bless.

Take care of your body.
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:53 PM   #25
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Why do you call me a troll? Just because my training methods differ from yours, doesn't mean I'm a troll.

I did lift weights for a decade.

I got solid numbers, high pfp strength. But thank God I switched to calesthenics.

You know, it was a blessing that I found out about advanced calesthenics.

Hopefully, you find out about it too. Good luck and God bless.

Take care of your body.
Cheers. You go kill yourself now.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:52 AM   #26
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

The reason why someone who is slower and lighter can hit harder than someone bigger and faster is because they transfer motion better. Basically technique.
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:30 AM   #27
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
But you're forgetting about the delivery of the force.

...other guy hits, but instead of delivering all of the force at the end of a solid arm, his weaker arm "buckles"...
In this example the force wasn't delivered by the second boxer, for reasons as you mentioned. Like I said in my example, all things being equal, including the delivery, the outcome can be predicted every single time.

In your example, and in a real life example like the OP proposes, all things will not be equal. If one guys arm buckles, obviously he's not going to hit as hard as someone with a solid punch.

However, my point is, arm strength (beyond the amount needed to deliver the punch in a technically perfect way) has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGWTF View Post
Thanks for your answer mate! Can you explain the following tho?

So how do you explain a guy like george forman hitting harder than mike Tyson, depite both men in their prime weighing the same and Tyson being MUCH faster with better technique and George being slow?

Sure thing:

I don't think anyone who fought both would say George was a bigger puncher than Tyson, for the reasons that you mentioned. I'd wager that if both were in a lab having punching power measured that Tyson would blow George out of the water.

Can you explain why Earnie Shavers hit the hardest out of everyone despite not weighing much for a HW and despite not being that fast?

Because he had good technique that allowed him to put more of his body mass into his punches.

Can you explain why rocky marciano hit so hard for am man his size who was small and no especially fast.

Same as above

Can you explain why Julian Jackson hit so much harder than Roy Jones Jr despite weighing less and being slower, ?
Because Roy had shitty punching technique. He threw a lot of arm punches while he was off balance. The reason he was successful was because of blinding hand speed, which allowed him to land shots the other guys didn't see coming. Those are always the ones that **** you up.

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Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
How do you overcome inertia/accelerate mass? With strength
Talking about physics
Force is essentially the equivalent of strength. Have you never seen a force-velocity curve?
Look, dumbass. You obviously don't know shit about phsyics, so let me school your simple ass before you clog this guys thread up with more irrelevant nonsense.

1. Mass and weight are not the same thing.


The mass of an object refers to the amount of matter that is contained by the object. The weight of an object is the force of gravity acting upon that object.

Mass is related to how much stuff is there and weight is related to the pull of the Earth upon that stuff.

The mass of an object (measured in kg) will be the same no matter where in the universe that object is located. Mass is never altered by location, the pull of gravity, speed or even the existence of other forces. For example, a 2-kg object will have a mass of 2 kg whether it is located on Earth, the moon, or Jupiter; its mass will be 2 kg whether it is moving or not (at least for purposes of our study); and its mass will be 2 kg whether it is being pushed upon or not.

On the other hand, the weight of an object (measured in Newton) will vary according to where in the universe the object is. Weight depends upon which planet is exerting the force and the distance the object is from the planet. Weight, being equivalent to the force of gravity, is dependent upon the value of g - the gravitational field strength. On earth's surface g is 9.8 N/kg (often approximated as 10 N/kg). On the moon's surface, g is 1.7 N/kg. Go to another planet, and there will be another g value. Furthermore, the g value is inversely proportional to the distance from the center of the planet. So if we were to measure g at a distance of 400 km above the earth's surface, then we would find the g value to be less than 9.8 N/kg. (The nature of the force of gravity will be discussed in more detail in a later unit of The Physics Classroom.) Always be cautious of the distinction between mass and weight. It is the source of much confusion for many students of physics.


2. Force, Strength and Power are not the same thing.

Force is the capacity to perform work. It has both quantity and direction. We would speak of "the force of gravity" for example. It is measured in newtons (N).

Power is the rate at which work is done, commonly measured in Watts (W).

Strength is generally the ability to resist deformation. It cam be measured in a number of ways, crushing strength for example may be measured in megapascals (MPa).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
Tendon properties, level of CNS activation, muscle wisdom, technique, lack of co-activation, muscle pennation, fascicle length, point of tendon insertion, muscle stiffness etc. etc.

This is a stupid question that can't be answered (especially not with the level of understanding being displayed here) because there are too many factors and individual circumstances. But if you'd like to listen to idiots claim that it's all about a simple equation like body weight x velocity then go ahead.
Obviously you are that idiot. Assuming that your brain didn't explode trying to understand this post, do us a favor and go read a book with your simple ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGWTF View Post
Nice, is there anyway to get a full picture of what makes a powerful punch with all the factors included, or is it simply not known to anyone?

How do you find out the answer to this complex question? What do you study to know? Is there any literature specific in answering this question or is it mainly theories and no one really knows?
Brother, I gave you the answer in my first post. If you don't believe me, go to any gym and watch people hit the bag. Its obvious in seconds that technique = punching power.

If you don't want to watch the entire video, just watch the from where they show Houston Alexander to the end. They explain the entire process scientifically and very clearly. If it wasn't true then how do you explain a 140lb woman with a great ass punching harder than a 200lb male MMA fighter with ripped muscles?

Its not magic. Its easily explainable by science. Don't let the 15yr old, wanking to porn in their rooms trolls on ESB sway you into thinking otherwise.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eplLem4jPs[/ame]

Last edited by Slacker; 10-19-2012 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:47 AM   #28
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by ben1990 View Post
The reason why someone who is slower and lighter can hit harder than someone bigger and faster is because they transfer motion better. Basically technique.
Through the position of the Head. .
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:51 AM   #29
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Take a fella with skinny wrists and small hands, he will not be a puncher, fact. Therefore proof that bone structure and tendons make a difference.
There are lots of boxers with brittle hands...Floyd Mayheather for example...

As for the skinny wrist argument... how about this guy? You know, former wold champion and known badass, Tommy Hearns? He had skinny arms and small hands.

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Old 10-19-2012, 09:21 AM   #30
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Yeah thanks for proving my point, Mayweather has small hands and most boxing fans dont regard him as puncher what so ever, Hearns actually had a larger frame thank you might think, I remember Steward talking about it saying he was not only taller than his opponents but actually he measured up the same in most areas like wrist width, chest bicep etc.. Hearns also punched with great technique, speed, he had leverage, the lot.

So good try mate but no.
Actually, if you do your homework, Hearns was NOT a big puncher before Steward, so he's a perfect example to prove MY point.

He had skinny ass arms but he was tall and had good reach. I'm sure if you go fact check you will see this is what Steward said.

Steward showed him the same techniques he showed Lennox and Wlad (both monster punchers) and suddenly, *alakazam* Hearns turned into a powerhouse.
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