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Old 10-19-2012, 10:26 AM   #31
aramini
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

As far as Hearns, If you can drop a punch down, you can hurt guys. Pavlik, Hearns, the Klits, Lennox Lewis, maybe Corales: all pretty big punchers because of leverage, but guys like Williams smother there own leverage.

Wrists have a HUGE factor in punching. Biofeedback: a man who knows he is going to hurt his wrist learns how hard he can punch without hurting it. I could VERY easily punch someone so hard I would sprain or break my wrist, but I never do, because I know there is a certain level of force my hand can't take with a wrist under 6 inches in circumference, and when I throw KO punches my wrist hurts. Pac's wrist is EIGHT inches in circumference. I honestly believe that if he is actually physically stronger than me it is negligible (tougher is another matter), but I promise you he can throw punches much much much harder than I can without worrying about his wrist snapping.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:55 AM   #32
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
In this example the force wasn't delivered by the second boxer, for reasons as you mentioned. Like I said in my example, all things being equal, including the delivery, the outcome can be predicted every single time.

In your example, and in a real life example like the OP proposes, all things will not be equal. If one guys arm buckles, obviously he's not going to hit as hard as someone with a solid punch.

However, my point is, arm strength (beyond the amount needed to deliver the punch in a technically perfect way) has nothing to do with it.



Because Roy had ****ty punching technique. He threw a lot of arm punches while he was off balance. The reason he was successful was because of blinding hand speed, which allowed him to land shots the other guys didn't see coming. Those are always the ones that **** you up.



Look, dumbass. You obviously don't know **** about phsyics, so let me school your simple ass before you clog this guys thread up with more irrelevant nonsense.

1. Mass and weight are not the same thing.


The mass of an object refers to the amount of matter that is contained by the object. The weight of an object is the force of gravity acting upon that object.

Mass is related to how much stuff is there and weight is related to the pull of the Earth upon that stuff.

The mass of an object (measured in kg) will be the same no matter where in the universe that object is located. Mass is never altered by location, the pull of gravity, speed or even the existence of other forces. For example, a 2-kg object will have a mass of 2 kg whether it is located on Earth, the moon, or Jupiter; its mass will be 2 kg whether it is moving or not (at least for purposes of our study); and its mass will be 2 kg whether it is being pushed upon or not.

On the other hand, the weight of an object (measured in Newton) will vary according to where in the universe the object is. Weight depends upon which planet is exerting the force and the distance the object is from the planet. Weight, being equivalent to the force of gravity, is dependent upon the value of g - the gravitational field strength. On earth's surface g is 9.8 N/kg (often approximated as 10 N/kg). On the moon's surface, g is 1.7 N/kg. Go to another planet, and there will be another g value. Furthermore, the g value is inversely proportional to the distance from the center of the planet. So if we were to measure g at a distance of 400 km above the earth's surface, then we would find the g value to be less than 9.8 N/kg. (The nature of the force of gravity will be discussed in more detail in a later unit of The Physics Classroom.) Always be cautious of the distinction between mass and weight. It is the source of much confusion for many students of physics.


2. Force, Strength and Power are not the same thing.

Force is the capacity to perform work. It has both quantity and direction. We would speak of "the force of gravity" for example. It is measured in newtons (N).

Power is the rate at which work is done, commonly measured in Watts (W).

Strength is generally the ability to resist deformation. It cam be measured in a number of ways, crushing strength for example may be measured in megapascals (MPa).



Obviously you are that idiot. Assuming that your brain didn't explode trying to understand this post, do us a favor and go read a book with your simple ass.



Brother, I gave you the answer in my first post. If you don't believe me, go to any gym and watch people hit the bag. Its obvious in seconds that technique = punching power.

If you don't want to watch the entire video, just watch the from where they show Houston Alexander to the end. They explain the entire process scientifically and very clearly. If it wasn't true then how do you explain a 140lb woman with a great ass punching harder than a 200lb male MMA fighter with ripped muscles?

Its not magic. Its easily explainable by science. Don't let the 15yr old, ****ing to porn in their rooms trolls on ESB sway you into thinking otherwise.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Talking about irrelevant. I don't need your rambling elementary physics lesson,
I know the difference between mass and weight. It makes zero difference to what we're talking about and you wasted all that time typing that **** out. I hope it impressed someone else because it did nothing for me
You don't even know the definition of strength you ****ing spastic.
Are you actually claiming that a 200 pound made of fat man is going to have as much power as a 200 pound made of muscle man if they're throwing at the same speed?
You are absolutely clueless, read my explanation again. Then read it again. Maybe we can spark a synaptic connection somewhere in that empty coconut of yours
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:57 AM   #33
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
Technique matters, but is not the be all and end all.

Look at Marcos Maidana or Ricardo Mayorga do either of them punch with good technique? I'd say no but they both have pretty thunderous power.

I think power comes in different forms and for different reasons; strength, speed, tendons, bone structure, leverages, technique, angle etc.

One thing I always stand by, alot people might disagree, punchers dont have has small hands, just look at all the big punchers in the small weights (welterweight and bellow) they may be 5'7 and look like a small man but they have the hands of a 6'4 man. I'm convinced it makes a difference.
Through what mechanism could hand size produce power? No offence but that's completely idiotic.
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:03 AM   #34
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by aramini View Post
As far as Hearns, If you can drop a punch down, you can hurt guys. Pavlik, Hearns, the Klits, Lennox Lewis, maybe Corales: all pretty big punchers because of leverage, but guys like Williams smother there own leverage.

Wrists have a HUGE factor in punching. Biofeedback: a man who knows he is going to hurt his wrist learns how hard he can punch without hurting it. I could VERY easily punch someone so hard I would sprain or break my wrist, but I never do, because I know there is a certain level of force my hand can't take with a wrist under 6 inches in circumference, and when I throw KO punches my wrist hurts. Pac's wrist is EIGHT inches in circumference. I honestly believe that if he is actually physically stronger than me it is negligible (tougher is another matter), but I promise you he can throw punches much much much harder than I can without worrying about his wrist snapping.
Nonsense.
Nobodies afferent nerves can give that sort of information to the CNS, and that's not something that you're going to consciously know or learn. All the training boxers do to develop power desensitises the GTO.
What does wrist size have to do with bone density anyway? (Bone density would be a factor for breaking a wrist, I don't understand what bone size has to do with anything)
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:07 AM   #35
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
I'm not saying hand size its self produces power, obviously it doesnt, but what I meant was without a strudy wrist and a decent size fist you will never be able to throw at full pelt without worrying about breaking a wrist, IE- Mayweather has to be cautious due to his brittle hands IE Pacquiao has a think wrist and strong hands and can punch right through his opponent without thinking about it. See what I mean?
No I don't. That's a psychological issue, that's got nothing to do with wrist size. Do you think that everybody with small wrists is going to be worrying constantly about breaking them? No. And there's no reason they should because the size of your wrist has nothing to do with how sturdy it is or if you're vulnerable to injury or not.
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:38 AM   #36
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
Nonsense.
Nobodies afferent nerves can give that sort of information to the CNS, and that's not something that you're going to consciously know or learn. All the training boxers do to develop power desensitises the GTO.
What does wrist size have to do with bone density anyway? (Bone density would be a factor for breaking a wrist, I don't understand what bone size has to do with anything)

I took about two years off once. Then I went back and hit the bag - but I forgot how hard I could hit safely and my two large knuckles on my right hand swelled up and disappeared in fluid, then my left wrist started aching. Then I remembered - I can't hit as hard as I want to whenever I want.

It is conscious. I have decided to hit a guy as hard as I can with one punch and knocked them out with a left hook, but fractured my wrist.

Completely conscious decision, and professional fighters who fight all the time SHOULD be aware of this if they have any selfawareness.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:04 PM   #37
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

Interestingly, Manny Pacquiao has 8" wrists, while Wladimir Klitschko has 7.5" wrists. Klitschko hits about 10x harder.

7.5" wrists are very small for a 6'6, 245lb man.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:06 PM   #38
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by withoutwire View Post
Interestingly, Manny Pacquiao has 8" wrists, while Wladimir Klitschko has 7.5" wrists. Klitschko hits about 10x harder.

7.5" wrists are very small for a 6'6, 245lb man.
Klit has all that leverage. It's not one thing, it's many things. and he is a strong strong man overall.

But there is a reason Pac can hurt welterweights when other lighweights can't. and of course a 250 lb man is going to be stronger than a 5'6'' 140 lb man.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:09 PM   #39
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

It's so obvious there is a reason that Pac can throw like that over and over and over, KO shots, besides just his conditioning.

Floyd's only knockdown is from breaking his hand on a guys head (Carlos hernandez), and when he went after Baldomir in round one he hurt his hand and toned it down. There's a reason he doesn't go for the KO.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:03 PM   #40
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
I dont think he punches hard for his weight. Mike tyson punched much harder at 210lbs than he does, so if your trying to **** on the theory it did not work.
Klitschko hits just as hard as Tyson, he just wasn't as fast, and throws like 10% of the punches Tyson used to throw.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:36 PM   #41
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

Wrist size has nothing to do with wrist strength. I see the point about biomechanical feedback, I limit my own power when hitting the bags due to this. I'm built more like Hearns (long legs, skinny arms, small wrist), but my grip strength is good (do pullups kids) and I can hit very hard for my weight due to the leverage I get into my shots. I've never thought about not hitting someone hard because of my wrists. People move when you hit them lol.

Power can be aided by strenght but there's a lot more going into it than strength, force, power, etc. The way you punch, your timing, the shots you select, the way ypou mix your punches...all of that has something to do with power. The way your body is trained to generate power has a lot to do with it. I used to play a lot of baseball as a kid, threw the discus and javelin, etc. I have a lot of rotational power when I whip shots in, but I haven't got a lot of pushing power. I think it has to do with years of training my body to generate force in a whip motion.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:16 PM   #42
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

If the Head isnt in the Position it should be, you are not in a Driving Position, but a Falling one.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:34 PM   #43
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

Quote:
Originally Posted by dealt_with View Post
No, you can't know and anybody who says that you can is lying. There are plenty of theories but a lot of research needs to be done still before you can conclusively say "This is the recipe for power".
What is known is that for a throwing motion like a punch is that forces are summated and that your tendons multiply the speed and power. What this means is that your muscles need to perform work on preferably stiff tendons (Think of them as a thick rubber band), your muscles need to hold force at a high level to stretch and transfer the energy to your tendons.
When you punch you generate force by pushing into the ground and transferring that force through your mid section before releasing it through your arm. The stretch between your hips and shoulders is extremely important, your hips need to stop before your shoulder twists into the punch; this ensures that you get a good stretch and recoil through your midsection.
I believe that's where a lot of fighters fail in their punching chain, boxers are always taught that power comes from the legs and being fast... You see fast guys like Bradley or Malignaggi and people ask why they can't punch, they tend to punch with their hips and shoulders moving at the same time. You then look at someone like Golovkin or Pacman and you'll see that their hips are always very stable at the time they release their hands.
Bradley and co. look fast but their fist at the point of impact isn't accelerating like Golovkin's or Julian Jacksons is.
Golovkin and co. are multiplying their force through a throwing motion throughout the punch, Bradley and co. are moving quickly but pushing it from the waist up so forces don't summate.
It's a coordination/motor movement issue primarily but strength is very important as well.
It's not about how fast a guy is from A to B, it's about what is happening at the point of impact.
A guy might be big and slow looking but if you look at how efficiently he summates his forces through the mechanisms I talked about then he may be a devastating puncher and his fist might be moving a lot faster at the point of impact than a guy like Andre Ward who is a fast body mover but again is slowly pushing a punch at the point of impact.
Look at any good puncher form Foreman to Jackson and you'll notice the stability of the hips and that their fist seems to be gaining something as they're still connecting.

Great answer thanks mate I noticed a huge difference between turning the hips and shoulders all at once and getting the stretch reflex of the obliques etc accelerate / "sling" the punch, it just seems insane that I can punch with better power generating technique than a pro like Bradley lol


After reading you post Im gonna try and exagerate the whip as much as I can although I think I have it maxed out.

But what I might not be doing is pushing off the ground, I tend to spin my foot on the ground and theres not much pushing (except for the cross) and theres not much friction between my pivoting foot and the ground so maybe im doing that wrong.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:39 PM   #44
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
In this example the force wasn't delivered by the second boxer, for reasons as you mentioned. Like I said in my example, all things being equal, including the delivery, the outcome can be predicted every single time.

In your example, and in a real life example like the OP proposes, all things will not be equal. If one guys arm buckles, obviously he's not going to hit as hard as someone with a solid punch.

However, my point is, arm strength (beyond the amount needed to deliver the punch in a technically perfect way) has nothing to do with it.



Because Roy had ****ty punching technique. He threw a lot of arm punches while he was off balance. The reason he was successful was because of blinding hand speed, which allowed him to land shots the other guys didn't see coming. Those are always the ones that **** you up.



Look, dumbass. You obviously don't know **** about phsyics, so let me school your simple ass before you clog this guys thread up with more irrelevant nonsense.

1. Mass and weight are not the same thing.


The mass of an object refers to the amount of matter that is contained by the object. The weight of an object is the force of gravity acting upon that object.

Mass is related to how much stuff is there and weight is related to the pull of the Earth upon that stuff.

The mass of an object (measured in kg) will be the same no matter where in the universe that object is located. Mass is never altered by location, the pull of gravity, speed or even the existence of other forces. For example, a 2-kg object will have a mass of 2 kg whether it is located on Earth, the moon, or Jupiter; its mass will be 2 kg whether it is moving or not (at least for purposes of our study); and its mass will be 2 kg whether it is being pushed upon or not.

On the other hand, the weight of an object (measured in Newton) will vary according to where in the universe the object is. Weight depends upon which planet is exerting the force and the distance the object is from the planet. Weight, being equivalent to the force of gravity, is dependent upon the value of g - the gravitational field strength. On earth's surface g is 9.8 N/kg (often approximated as 10 N/kg). On the moon's surface, g is 1.7 N/kg. Go to another planet, and there will be another g value. Furthermore, the g value is inversely proportional to the distance from the center of the planet. So if we were to measure g at a distance of 400 km above the earth's surface, then we would find the g value to be less than 9.8 N/kg. (The nature of the force of gravity will be discussed in more detail in a later unit of The Physics Classroom.) Always be cautious of the distinction between mass and weight. It is the source of much confusion for many students of physics.


2. Force, Strength and Power are not the same thing.

Force is the capacity to perform work. It has both quantity and direction. We would speak of "the force of gravity" for example. It is measured in newtons (N).

Power is the rate at which work is done, commonly measured in Watts (W).

Strength is generally the ability to resist deformation. It cam be measured in a number of ways, crushing strength for example may be measured in megapascals (MPa).



Obviously you are that idiot. Assuming that your brain didn't explode trying to understand this post, do us a favor and go read a book with your simple ass.



Brother, I gave you the answer in my first post. If you don't believe me, go to any gym and watch people hit the bag. Its obvious in seconds that technique = punching power.

If you don't want to watch the entire video, just watch the from where they show Houston Alexander to the end. They explain the entire process scientifically and very clearly. If it wasn't true then how do you explain a 140lb woman with a great ass punching harder than a 200lb male MMA fighter with ripped muscles?

Its not magic. Its easily explainable by science. Don't let the 15yr old, ****ing to porn in their rooms trolls on ESB sway you into thinking otherwise.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Nice answer thanks mate!!
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:41 PM   #45
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Default Re: 2 guys both same weight and speed, one is strong one isnt, do they hit with = pow

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Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
You cant punch with better power than Bradley, you absolute idiot
No if anything you are the stupid one because I said with better power generation technique with regards to whipping the punch, not actual power.

Understand?
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