The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

I consider a loss part of a guys progression as a fighter. A fighter has to lose to get better usually. There are exception like Mike Tyson or Chavez. Ray learned the lesson quickly and applied it in his second fight. He learned to fight his fight and to play little mental games, although he never mastered the mental games well like Duran. Duran was just natural at everything he did. Natural boxer and he loved the whole aspect of the game. Leonard had to work at being a manipulator at press conferences, and he did not have the same effect as Duran. But Ray loved how Duran got him to brawl which made him want to be able to do that.

The only guy who fell a little for Leonard's games later was Hagler and the public, who thought when he came back in 1987 to fight Hagler that he would lose easily. People didn't know Ray was simulating fights with Quincy Taylor and others. Hagler bought the nonsense that Leonard was his good friend and rusty and not a top fighter, which I think that made him come out right handed to outbox Ray. Hearns on the other hand made the mistake of getting Hagler mad and that motivated Marvin to focus. I am going off subject.

for fuck sake.

Leonard is out. we know how that fight ends.

Think of other guys who we don't know the result of were they to face off against duran in montreal.

[rusak]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

your still in some "duran is not top 10 p4p" mode. this thread is specifically about that one night. I'm not saying he was washed up against benitez. I'm not sayiong he was pre prime for de jesus.

Him and Leonard fought prime for prime on the night in question. Duran won
Leonard isn't part of this debate, he's the one man we definitely know loses. Pick some other guy to bang on about.

Leonard lost a close fight in Montreal. It wasn't lopsided at all. I had Duran winning by 2 points. If Leonard fought "smarter" he could have won.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by rusak

Leonard lost a close fight in Montreal. It wasn't lopsided at all. I had Duran winning by 2 points. If Leonard fought "smarter" he could have won.

he had 15 rounds to "fight smarter" and wasn't able to do it that night.

I'm not entertaining a Leonard pick in this thread as it's insane.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

for fuck sake.

Leonard is out. we know how that fight ends.

Think of other guys who we don't know the result of were they to face off against duran in montreal.

Well in my mind Duran would beat most guys he fought regardless of June or a few months later. He was great as I have stated. The guys he would lose to probably are Benitez,Hearns,Leonard,Whitaker and Mayweather. Delahoya is a toss up for me. Oscar would have to use his jab and fight a very careful fight but he has the style and speed and jab to maybe do it, but he could not handle a brawl with Duran. I don't think Curry could beat Duran. Donald put his feet too wide apart, and Duran would eventually get to him and stop him late. Mosley had quick hands, but he stood still too much and that would be the same as Leonard/Duran one. I think the results would be the same in June or Nov. 1980.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

Well in my mind Duran would beat most guys he fought regardless of June or a few months later. He was great as I have stated. The guys he would lose to probably are Benitez,Hearns,Whitaker and Mayweather. Delahoya is a toss up for me. Oscar would have to use his jab and fight a very careful fight but he has the style and speed and jab to maybe do it, but he could not handle a brawl with Duran. I don't think Curry could beat Duran. Donald put his feet too wide apart, and Duran would eventually get to him and stop him late. Mosley had quick hands, but he stood still too much and that would be the same as Leonard/Duran one. I think the results would be the same in June or Nov. 1980.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by rusak

Leonard lost a close fight in Montreal. It wasn't lopsided at all. I had Duran winning by 2 points. If Leonard fought "smarter" he could have won.

and that was Ray's whole point of fighting Duran's fight. He wanted to beat him at his own game. Very immature of Ray. Fighting Duran's style just to prove something after he insulted his wife. but he learned a lesson.
I remember when Ray fought Tommy in the rematch, he was pointing at his chin at press conferences and trying to get Tommy to lose confidence and to get out of his fightplan. Tommy wasn't falling for it, then Tommy said out of the blue a few days before the fight" Ray you look big!! you sure you aren't talking something?" Tommy was insinuating steriods, but he was not serious. Ray was floored. Then Ray said to Tommy " I will put my whole purse on the line if you put yours on the line also and if I am negative you give up your money" Well Tommy didn't take it, but I remember right then Tommy turned the prefight around with one comment. Ray was not as great as he wanted to be in prefight tactics. Duran was a natural and could take comments better than Ray. So could Hearns. Ray was a great fighter, but he was not the tough minded guys Hearns and Hagler and Duran were. He could beat them, but they had the long career.

[Vyborg1917]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

He hasn't on his bike like he was against SRL... He wasn't moving around and boxing.. He was standing toe to toe with Duran.. which IMO isn't a great strat against Duran... How don't care how big you are... A prime duran had great reflexes and great countering. Hearns was there to be hit and moving sticking and moving. Rest assured.. if SRL could hurt Tommy to the body... Duran most certainly could. IMO it was a bad play on Hearns part that worked out... I just think he would to that more times than not.. and pay the price for it.

Sorry but no, go watch the fight again. He wasn’t standing toe to toe, he was imposing a distance in the fight where he could hit Duran but Duran couldn’t effectively hit him; closing that range when he knew he had him hurt.

Yes if SRL could hurt Tommy to the body, BUT if Tommy could hurt Duran to the jaw, no hypothetical needed! I know that wasn't Duran, but no one came close to doing that to any of the other blown-up, past it versions. Even the best version of Duran has to move in on a guy with rapier-like straight punches, an overwhelming reach, and dynamite power in the right hand. It’s not detracting from the greatness of Duran to admit it’s a bad H2H; he remains the foremost of the fab four p4p IMO.

[Vyborg1917]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

he had 15 rounds to "fight smarter" and wasn't able to do it that night.

I'm not entertaining a Leonard pick in this thread as it's insane.

I don't necessarily think it is. You're allowing a best version of Duran, but not a better suited, more experienced version of Leonard, irrespective of if he's changed his style or not. Either allow parity in fantasy picks or do away with the idea of an isolated version of a fighter, which is quite unrealistic anyway.

[Hookie]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

That hungry man killer who'd just dominated the LW division and HOF opposition at WW. The one who would rip the title from Leonard in a fight Sugar said felt like "death".

How many from the annals of WW history would have denied Roberto Duran that night? How many would you be comfortable in favouring over Duran that night?

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

People forget how close this fight was. Leonard fought Duran's fight and lost by a point IMO. He made a few adjustments in the rematch and easily outboxed Duran.

So, Duran at his WW best (Montreal Duran) vs. Leonard at his WW best (Benitez, Hearns, or 2nd Duran fight)? I'll take Leonard.

Others?

Robinson, Armstrong, Hearns, Benitez, DeLaHoya, Mosley, Pacquiao, and Mayweather would all have a better than average chance at victory vs. Duran at WW... even "Montreal Duran".

[ripcity]

Any top ATG 25 welterweight smart enough not to go toe to toe with him. It's not like he domanated Leonard that fight. I'd go as far as to say with the right judges any ATG top 25 welterweight.

[ripcity]

The myth of Montreal Duran the most inveicable boxer. He's the Sidd Finch of boxing

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Vyborg1917

I don't necessarily think it is. You're allowing a best version of Duran, but not a better suited, more experienced version of Leonard, irrespective of if he's changed his style or not. Either allow parity in fantasy picks or do away with the idea of an isolated version of a fighter, which is quite unrealistic anyway.

not entertaining it

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Hookie

People forget how close this fight was. Leonard fought Duran's fight and lost by a point IMO. He made a few adjustments in the rematch and easily outboxed Duran.

So, Duran at his WW best (Montreal Duran) vs. Leonard at his WW best (Benitez, Hearns, or 2nd Duran fight)? I'll take Leonard.

Others?

Robinson, Armstrong, Hearns, Benitez, DeLaHoya, Mosley, Pacquiao, and Mayweather would all have a better than average chance at victory vs. Duran at WW... even "Montreal Duran".

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by ripcity

Any top ATG 25 welterweight smart enough not to go toe to toe with him. It's not like he domanated Leonard that fight. I'd go as far as to say with the right judges any ATG top 25 welterweight.

I'd love to see Robinson go toe-to-toe with him.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

I'd love to see Robinson go toe-to-toe with him.

Agreed it'd be amazing to witness, I wouldn't favour any Welter to go toe-to-toe with Robinson and come out the victor. His blazing combos and speed, concussive power and ultra-durability makes him a damn near impossible hill to climb.