Holman Williams vs Luis Manuel Rodriguez: Greater Fighter

[the cobra]

These two have been pissing me off for a while now. I don't know where to rank them, exactly. That being the case, and with both men having campaigned from Welter to Middle and each being, perhaps unfairly so, a bit in the shadow of one of their respective rivals, I thought they'd make for a nice comparison. I only know the basic info on each of them. Little more than what Boxrec can tell me. Only seen a few of LMR's battles and just the same 19 seconds of Holman that anyone else has. I'd like to get the thoughts of those who have much more detailed knowledge on the career of either man (or both. Both would be better). So...you do that.


A brief rundown of their stupid impressive resumes for a quick glance (Official results only. I haven't gotten around to watching any of the Griffith bouts yet, but I know they're all close and rather controversial. Thoughts on those from the ones who have seen them would be appreciated as well).

Williams: 146-30-11 36 KO's -
Charley Burley 2x, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall 2x, Eddie Booker, Cocoa Kid 3x, Jack Chase 4x, Bert Lytell, Aaron Wade, Izzy Jannazzo, Steve Belloise, Kid Tunero 3x, Jose Basora 2x, Tommy Paul, Joe Carter 3x, Bob Satterfield, etc.


Rodriguez: 107-13 49 KO's -
Emile Griffith, Curtis Cokes, George Benton, Benny Paret 2x, Yama Bahama 2x, Chico Vejar, Rubin Carter 2x, Holly Mims, Joey Giambra, Isaac Logart, Virgil Akins 2x, Bennie Briscoe 2x, LC Morgan, Denny Moyer, Tony Mundine, etc.


Discuss and argue and berate.

(You can match them H2H too, if you want. Whatever)

[Flea Man]

Painful.

Most will go with Williams. His era has that special shine to it of course. Cocoa Kid got the better of their series, Cokes the better of the trilogy with LMR.

Rodriguez obviously the better hitter, Holman's hands were fucked for years.

Rodriguez looked ace against Mims, and took the fight on what, 9 days notice? He was pretty f'n old school himself. He also looked brilliant against Olympic gold medalist Wilbur McClure, a tall undefeated middleweight brought up the hard way that Rodriguez nigh on sparked in their first fight (and won both IMO) cut up Bahama very quick, got the better of the series with Griffith IMO. Stopped Mundine quicker than Monzon (no footage sadly)

This of course, is why it's easier to plump for LMR. Footage. I'd likely find Williams equally spellbinding if I saw him spotting weight to top quality middleweight contenders and making them look, at times, foolish. I'm mesmerised by Lytell, Chase and especially Eddie Booker so I'm sure of feel more comfortable ranking these guys in the 20-30, 60-70, 90-100 brackets if I'd seen 'em, but as it stands there's all sorts of guys that got the better of other Murderers Row members, so it's really hard to discern which one of them should be ranked higher in some cases.

Both should be in the top 50 fighters of all time. I rank Rodriguez higher, but as I say I find it hard not to having also grown fond of his skill and attributes watching quite a bit of him where he looks fucking brilliant. Rodriguez shouldn't be far off Gavilan, Napoles, Griffith and Williams shouldn't be far off Burley either IMO.

It could go either way. I can see why Williams might even be considered far superior given the fact he fought in the golden age and Rodriguez's middleweight era doesn't always receive the acclaim that ,IMO, it should. But I think anything other than a close call here is unfair. Both are greats of a very high calibre indeed.

[the cobra]

Alright, Flea, my man.

Originally posted by Flea Man
Rodriguez looked ace against Mims, and took the fight on what, 9 days notice? He was pretty f'n old school himself. He also looked brilliant against Olympic gold medalist Wilbur McClure, a tall undefeated middleweight brought up the hard way that Rodriguez nigh on sparked in their first fight (and won both IMO) cut up Bahama very quick, got the better of the series with Griffith IMO. Stopped Mundine quicker than Monzon (no footage sadly)

I've seen the 2nd McClure fight. Wasn't aware of his pedigree though. That's two more solid wins. You think the Griffith losses could have gone either way or were straight robberies? Basically, do you think he showed himself to clearly be the better man or was it just kind of a, 'depends on what you like,' sort of thing? Plan on watching them some time next week.

This of course, it's why it's easier to plump for LMR. Footage. I'd likely find Williams equally spellbinding if I saw him spotting weight to top quality middleweight contenders and making them look, at times, foolish. I'm mesmerised by Lytell, Chase and especially Eddie Booker so I'm sure of feel more comfortable ranking these guys in the 20-30, 60-70, 90-100 brackets if I'd seen 'em, but as it stands there's all sorts of guys that got the better of other Murderers Row members, so it's really hard to discern which one of them should be ranked higher in some cases.

Both should be in the top 50 fighters of all time. I rank Rodriguez higher, but as I say I find it hard not to having also grown fond of his skill and attributes watching quite a bit of him where he looks fucking brilliant. Rodriguez shouldn't be far off Gavilan, Napoles, Griffith and Williams shouldn't be far off Burley either IMO.

Aye, Rodriguez looks brilliant in the bits I've seen.

I definitely feel that he's practically right there with the other great Cuban welters. We'll see who ranks higher between he and Griffith after I've seen the fights. For some reason I've always had Burley at least 20 or so spots ahead of Williams. Looking more closely at things, that's a bit hard to justify. Still don't know what to make of the series with Cocoa Kid though.

It could go either way. I can see why Williams might even be considered far superior given the fact he fought in the golden age and Rodriguez's middleweight era doesn't always receive the acclaim that ,IMO, it should. But I think anything other than a close call here is unfair. Both are greats of a very high calibre indeed.

Agreed. Holman's got a crazy list of names defeated, but this is - as one might say - painfully close.

[The Funny Man 7]

I say Rodriguez but I have to qualify that. I think Williams had the better resume by a whisker but Rodriguez was closely but clearly the better fighter.

Rodriguez was one of the ultimate naturals. The guy was born for the ring.

[the cobra]

We've got a Robinson-Greb thing going on then. Interesting...

[Hands of Iron]

LMR, though admittedly film plays a significant role in it.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by the cobra

We've got a Robinson-Greb thing going on then. Interesting...

On a smaller scale, yeah. That's pinnacle material. Beginning to wonder if that's worthy of a thread/poll by now too. I don't know that Robinson is the overwhelming consensus pick here these days.

[the cobra]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

On a smaller scale, yeah. That's pinnacle material. Beginning to wonder if that's worthy of a thread/poll by now too. I don't know that Robinson is the overwhelming consensus pick here these days.

It's been a while since the last, "Who's really the GOAT?" thread popped up around here. You'd just have to add Langford, Ezzard, and...um...



































oh yeah!





Fitzsimmons.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by the cobra

I've seen the 2nd McClure fight. Wasn't aware of his pedigree though. That's two more solid wins.

Well I'll get the first one on the tube for ya' shortly then.

Originally Posted by the cobra

You think the Griffith losses could have gone either way or were straight robberies? Basically, do you think he showed himself to clearly be the better man or was it just kind of a, 'depends on what you like,' sort of thing? Plan on watching them some time next week

All competitive. It's been a while but you can score at least two of 'em for Griffith (but I didn't) although admittedly I only have select rounds of their second fight. But looking at the ebb and flow of the series I'd say it's just more a case of Rodriguez coming off as the better of the two, and not in a good styles clash sorta' way, this is a top-notch Griffith.

Originally Posted by the cobra

I definitely feel that he's practically right there with the other great Cuban welters.

What about LMR and The Cuban Hawk's respective middleweight ledgers?

[PowerPuncher]

The thing about all these murderer's row guys fighting each other countless times, well ofcourse the best and most consistent of them are going to have wins over the rest of them, because they are the best of that time.

Competition and resume overrates boxers abilities sometimes. Maybe Holman was that amazing and he had to be good, but you know maybe he was just very good and the best at that time, like Rodriguez was for a bit

I do think Holman probably was better than Rodriguez, maybe not, impossible to say without footage

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

On a smaller scale, yeah. That's pinnacle material. Beginning to wonder if that's worthy of a thread/poll by now too. I don't know that Robinson is the overwhelming consensus pick here these days.

I'll take Greb and Armstrong over Robinson when that thread comes up.

[the cobra]

Originally posted by Flea Man
Well I'll get the first one on the tube for ya' shortly then.

All competitive. It's been a while but you can score at least two of 'em for Griffith (but I didn't) although admittedly I only have select rounds of their second fight. But looking at the ebb and flow of the series I'd say it's just more a case of Rodriguez coming off as the better of the two, and not in a good styles clash sorta' way, this is a top-notch Griffith.

What about LMR and The Cuban Hawk's respective middleweight ledgers?

Was just generalizing by referring to them as Welters. All told, ranking them P4P, I'd probably have the three of them within 12 spaces of each other and inside the top 40:

Gavilan
Napoles
Rodriguez

For now, anyway. Taking a series with a peak Griffith is high level stuff.

[Flea Man]

When you see it you might well have it:

Gavilan
Rodriguez
Napoles

[the cobra]

If there's to be a change, that'll be it. Kid's staying where he stays.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

What about The Cuban Hawk's respective middleweight ledger?

Too bad he wasn't successful in his bid for the title. Looks as though Olson did a good number on him in that encounter. Makes me wonder if Gavilan would've been added to Robinson's stoppage list if he hadn't retired and instead fought Gavilan a third time at MW circa 53-54.