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Old 10-31-2012, 06:20 AM   #16
mcvey
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Already, you've softened your stance in relation to what you originally wrote.

"If the fight is twelve rounds Conn wins" has now become "likely wins." Jantior and myself corrected you, you alter your position, that's fine.



But here you resist education more firmly.

Of the 13 fights Conn won at HW, 8 were won by way of KO, including a stoppage win over Bob Pastor, making him only the second man to stop him after Joe Louis. Pastor survived numerous punchers but Conn stopped him. He also stopped Lyons, O'Dowd, Knox, Barland, Hassett, Hughes, Dorazio for a MUCH higher KO% at HW than at any other weight. In short, Conn, like many other snippers found his punching ability when he changed training, sparring and tactics for success in the heavyweight division.

He was never going to be Earnie Shavers, but stunning Louis hardly means he has been revealed if you look a little closer than ko% and weight.



And yet being stopped twice in 69 fights spanning seventeen years, most of them spent in title fights is the sign of an absolutely exceptional chin. The truth, for any unbiased observer, is somewhere in the middle.

And the meat in this sandwich, I have underlined.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:44 AM   #17
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Already, you've softened your stance in relation to what you originally wrote.

"If the fight is twelve rounds Conn wins" has now become "likely wins." Jantior and myself corrected you, you alter your position, that's fine.



But here you resist education more firmly.

Of the 13 fights Conn won at HW, 8 were won by way of KO, including a stoppage win over Bob Pastor, making him only the second man to stop him after Joe Louis. Pastor survived numerous punchers but Conn stopped him. He also stopped Lyons, O'Dowd, Knox, Barland, Hassett, Hughes, Dorazio for a MUCH higher KO% at HW than at any other weight. In short, Conn, like many other snippers found his punching ability when he changed training, sparring and tactics for success in the heavyweight division.

He was never going to be Earnie Shavers, but stunning Louis hardly means he has been revealed if you look a little closer than ko% and weight.



And yet being stopped twice in 69 fights spanning seventeen years, most of them spent in title fights is the sign of an absolutely exceptional chin. The truth, for any unbiased observer, is somewhere in the middle.
No further comment from Mendoza ,addressing his statements that Conn had poor power at heavy, Louis had a shaky chin, Louis had a significant height advantage over Conn. All of which have been disproved.
Par for the course really.
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Old 11-01-2012, 08:20 PM   #18
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

McVey,

Once again your way off. Where to start? Conn wasn’t a puncher at all. His career KO% is 19.74%. That is about as low as it gets. Furthermore, Conn at 168 pound was decisively the smaller man. He also gave up 3.5” in reach, and a ton in hitting power. Yet his speed and skills since the height and reach were close enough off set Louis advantages in weight and power.

Braddock wasn’t a puncher either. His career KO% is only 30.25%. I fail to see one top level opponent that Braddock stopped. And Braddock had not fought in 2 years when he defended against Louis. Though he did manage to floor Louis early and win another round before gassing.

Once again, imagine if Wlad or Lewis fought a cruiser with modest power, and were floored and lost two rounds before the opponent gassed. They would be laughed and ridiculed! The internet chin police would be out in full force. There’s a blatant double standard when analyzing past greats though film which does not lie as you do.

So light hitters ( Farr, Conn and Braddock ) stunned Louis or floored him. This is not the mark
of a good chin, and if Louis was in there with heavier hitters ( guys who hit harder than Conn or Braddock and also had skills ), he’s in some trouble just like he was in the Schmeling match. Once again, not being stopped has is not the best bench mark of chins. Chins are best graded when they are hit. Take Wlad for example he only has 3 KO looses in 61 fights. Not bad, but does he have a good chin? No. Films tell us this. The same applies for Louis, and when light punchers either floored or stunned him, his chin should be questioned.

Louis was behind and could not catch Conn in 12 rounds, so the fight would likely be very similar if the match was 12 rounds. Conn likely wins via decision here. Most would agree. It was Conn’s folly to go for the KO. To paraphrase Louis, “ Billy you had the title for 12 rounds. “ Translation if the match was 12 rounds, you won.

Now for several off tangent points not related to this thread, which I only intend to reply to once. This is your tactic, as we both can see what happened on film to Louis. You know I am right here, so you take the argument in a different direction….

It is well known that Louis’ mangers had a cozy relationship with NY, and one of his managers was later convicted with mob links. Are you aware of the gambling problems and fixed fights in NY? Unfortunately in boxing the promoters / mangers pick the judges, and back then the ref’s used to score fights. Is there proof things were not on the level in Louis fights? No, but there is a lot of smoke. If you watch the films you will see Louis personal ref for 15+ title fights ( Donovan ) somehow scored the Farr fight 14-1 in favor of Louis. This is a BS card. Farr won at least six rounds clean, maybe more. The scoring in the first Godoy fight was way off too.

Jeffries was operating under 25 rounds. If you read a quality round by round report which details the action, the fight was about even or slightly in Jeffries favor prior to the KO in round 23. If the match was 20, Jeffries would have likely pressed it sooner than he did.

Johnson vs. Willard was 45 rounds. There was plenty of time. Had it been 20, I tend to doubt Willard would have would have waited as long as he did to press the action. Could Willard had stopped Johnson in 20? Sure. Willard hurt Johnson with body shots prior to the KO, the laid him out flat on his back with a 10 count in round 26. The fight was not a fix as Johnson lies. If the match was 12 rounds or 15 rounds I think Johnson wins. If the match was 25 rounds, I think Willard wins as Johnson was hurt bad on film in round 25. Then again I never see you watch/comment on films pre 1930 not on youtube.

Lastly, it’s blatantly obvious that anyone who critiques a white fighter to you is fair game, and in some cases you’ll even fan the flames. However if someone objectively analyzes boxing and the comment does not hold the black fighter in a positive light, you’ll become angry and play the race card. Such is the mark of a reverse racists or extremely liberal minded person who has a political interest beyond boxing. I’m not sure which you are. I think you simply use the ad hominem attack because facts and films don’t line up to your biased interests.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:26 AM   #19
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
McVey,

Once again your way off. Where to start? Conn wasn’t a puncher at all. His career KO% is 19.74%. That is about as low as it gets. Furthermore, Conn at 168 pound was decisively the smaller man. He also gave up 3.5” in reach, and a ton in hitting power. Yet his speed and skills since the height and reach were close enough off set Louis advantages in weight and power.

Braddock wasn’t a puncher either. His career KO% is only 30.25%. I fail to see one top level opponent that Braddock stopped. And Braddock had not fought in 2 years when he defended against Louis. Though he did manage to floor Louis early and win another round before gassing.

Once again, imagine if Wlad or Lewis fought a cruiser with modest power, and were floored and lost two rounds before the opponent gassed. They would be laughed and ridiculed! The internet chin police would be out in full force. There’s a blatant double standard when analyzing past greats though film which does not lie as you do.

So light hitters ( Farr, Conn and Braddock ) stunned Louis or floored him. This is not the mark
of a good chin, and if Louis was in there with heavier hitters ( guys who hit harder than Conn or Braddock and also had skills ), he’s in some trouble just like he was in the Schmeling match. Once again, not being stopped has is not the best bench mark of chins. Chins are best graded when they are hit. Take Wlad for example he only has 3 KO looses in 61 fights. Not bad, but does he have a good chin? No. Films tell us this. The same applies for Louis, and when light punchers either floored or stunned him, his chin should be questioned.

Louis was behind and could not catch Conn in 12 rounds, so the fight would likely be very similar if the match was 12 rounds. Conn likely wins via decision here. Most would agree. It was Conn’s folly to go for the KO. To paraphrase Louis, “ Billy you had the title for 12 rounds. “ Translation if the match was 12 rounds, you won.

Now for several off tangent points not related to this thread, which I only intend to reply to once. This is your tactic, as we both can see what happened on film to Louis. You know I am right here, so you take the argument in a different direction….

It is well known that Louis’ mangers had a cozy relationship with NY, and one of his managers was later convicted with mob links. Are you aware of the gambling problems and fixed fights in NY? Unfortunately in boxing the promoters / mangers pick the judges, and back then the ref’s used to score fights. Is there proof things were not on the level in Louis fights? No, but there is a lot of smoke. If you watch the films you will see Louis personal ref for 15+ title fights ( Donovan ) somehow scored the Farr fight 14-1 in favor of Louis. This is a BS card. Farr won at least six rounds clean, maybe more. The scoring in the first Godoy fight was way off too.

Jeffries was operating under 25 rounds. If you read a quality round by round report which details the action, the fight was about even or slightly in Jeffries favor prior to the KO in round 23. If the match was 20, Jeffries would have likely pressed it sooner than he did.

Johnson vs. Willard was 45 rounds. There was plenty of time. Had it been 20, I tend to doubt Willard would have would have waited as long as he did to press the action. Could Willard had stopped Johnson in 20? Sure. Willard hurt Johnson with body shots prior to the KO, the laid him out flat on his back with a 10 count in round 26. The fight was not a fix as Johnson lies. If the match was 12 rounds or 15 rounds I think Johnson wins. If the match was 25 rounds, I think Willard wins as Johnson was hurt bad on film in round 25. Then again I never see you watch/comment on films pre 1930 not on youtube.

Lastly, it’s blatantly obvious that anyone who critiques a white fighter to you is fair game, and in some cases you’ll even fan the flames. However if someone objectively analyzes boxing and the comment does not hold the black fighter in a positive light, you’ll become angry and play the race card. Such is the mark of a reverse racists or extremely liberal minded person who has a political interest beyond boxing. I’m not sure which you are. I think you simply use the ad hominem attack because facts and films don’t line up to your biased interests.
So Jeffries and Willard would have won their fights against Corbett and Johnson whatever the distance they were scheduled for ,though both were behind in their bouts ,yet if the Conn fight was for 12 rds Conn would have beaten Louis? Thats unbiased. The referee for the Willard figth said if the fight had been scored for 20 , that he would have given the decision to Johnson.

NB that is not the same as saying Willard would have won over 20rds.

Ive read the Corbett Jeffries ringside reports Corbett was comfortably in front in all the major papers. there again, I've read an old statement from you that Jeffries was level at the half way stage against Johnson. You make it up as you go along.

One of the judges in the Godoy fight gave it 10-4 to Louis, Donovan gave it 10-5.
And Donovan did not give Louis 14 rds against Farr ,look it up.

John Roxborough was a numbers runner thats his mob link.
Donovan was the referee in 11 of Louis's title defences,and in his return bouts where he had had very close fights with Godoy,Walcott and Conn, Donovan was not the third man, if ,as you suggest Donovan was "in the bag" . he would have been in the ring for those defences would he not?
That's another of your "theories" blown out of the water.
I see you've quietly dropped the stance that Louis had significant height advantages over Conn , being as I pointed out they were the same height. another howler from you.
Once again you are swimming against the tide with no evidence to support your stance. Are we surprised ? NO.

Last edited by mcvey; 11-03-2012 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
mcvey: So Jeffries and Willard would have won their fights against Corbett and Johnson whatever the distance they were scheduled for ,though both were behind in their bouts ,yet if the Conn fight was for 12 rds Conn would have beaten Louis? Thats unbiased. The referee for the Willard figth said if the figths had been scored for 20 , that he would have given the decision to Johnson.
>> For a guy who places a premium on spelling and grammar, you’re out to lunch. I posted the NY times round by round here on Jeffries vs. Corbett. Jeffries if you score the rounds based on the report was slightly ahead prior to the KO. I agree that Willard was behind, but the question to ask is when he would pick up the pace if the match was 25 or 20 rounds.


Quote:
One of the judges inthe Godoy fight gace it 10-4 to Louis, Donovan gave it 10-5.
And Donovan did not give Louis 14 rds against Farr ,look it up.

>>Donovan scored the fight 13-1 in favor of Farr according to Box Rec, who is missing a a round. Watch the fight moron. Farr won more than one round by any competent-fair judge. Donovan was anything but.




Quote:
John Roxborough was a numbers runner thats his mob link.
Donovan was the referee in 11 of Louis's title defences,and in his return bouts where he had had very close fights with Godoy,Walcott and Conn, Donovan was not the third man, if ,as you suggest Donovan was "in the bag" . he would have been in the ring for those defences would he not?
That's another of your "theories" blown out of the water.
I see you've quietly dropped the stance that Louis had significant height advantages over Conn , being as I pointed out they were the same height. another howler from you.

>>>Yes, the first Godoy fight was close. So what did Donovan score it 10-5 for Louis? A biased card if you watch the film. By the way, Donovan was not allowed to be the ref in the first Walcott fight. Walcott’s camp protested prior, and the replacement ref gave it to Walcott. In fact Donovan was not the ref in any of the Walcott’s fights. Your wrong again. I am wasting my time on a moron….

Quote:
Once again you are swimming against the tide with no evidence to support your stance. Are we surprised ? NO
>>I said Louis had a significant advantage in weight and 3.5” in reach. Your reading comprehension is as bad as your reverse racism.
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Old 11-02-2012, 01:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Woulda shoulda coulda but just for the sake of it, Louis standing drops quite a bit given Conn is a 167lbs, especially in H2Hs, Conn goes up in the P4P top20 and maybe top10, disagree with McGrain he doesn't makes the top10 HWs - Tunney doesn't, neither does Charles/Spinks. Conn would have to do allot to make that list

Conn if his manager has any sense DOES NOT rematch Louis
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Old 11-02-2012, 07:21 PM   #22
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
1 ) Conn was in the lead after 12 rounds. If this fight was a 12 round match, Conn likely wins. Louis simply could not catch up to Conn until Conn opted to go for the KO in round 13. I see no reason why the fight would play out significantly different if the match was scheduled for 12 rounds.
If the fight had been scheduled for 12 rounds, then Louis would have fought differently and Conn would have fought differently, hence I wouldn't even try to predict the outcome.

Quote:
2 ) Conn who was not a puncher at 168 pounds stunned Joe Louis!
Quote:

Louis’ chin was shaky. Like I said average at best by a champion’s standard. Want more examples? A light punching Tommy Farr stunned Louis on film. The likes of Jimmy Braddock floored him. So three light punchers at heavyweight ( Conn, Farr, and Braddock ) with low KO% either floored or stunned Louis. Not exactly the mark of a good chin.
A world class fighter can shake prety much anybody if they hit them cleanly. No astute observer would try to grade a fighters chin on him being shaken but remaining on his feet. A fighters chin should be graded primarily on who stopped them and failed to stop them.

People wishing to denigrate a fighters chin will resort to citing ocasions when they were dropped but got up, only if they cannot get what they want from the instances when they were stopped. If they are reduced to citing instances when the fighter was shaken but remained on their feet, then they are truly clutching at straws.

Jim Jeffries, who you consider to be a durable fighter, was staggered by Jim Corbett who was hardly a puncher. Does that mean that he was not a durable fighter, or would it be more sensible to grade his chin based on who stopped him or failed to stop him?


Quote:
The best skilled punchers Rocky fought were Schmeling and Marciano.


How do you figure that one out?

You could argue that Marciano was one of the hardest punchers he fought, but he was clearly nowhere near to being one of the most skilled.

You could make a case that Schmeling was one of the more skilled punchers he fought, but he was hardly in a different class to Ramage, Walcott, Charles, or even Conn himself.

Quote:
Louis could not recover from the cross that floored him by Schmeling. He lingered around the ring buzzed for much of the fight. Yes, Louis was older / not in his prime when he meet Rocky, but Joe won 8 fights in a row leading up to that match, and some of them were vs. name guys. It’s not a coincidence that both Schmeling and Marciano defeated Louis.


The only common factor is that they both stopped him, under circumstances that paint his durability in a very favourable light.

Quote:
If you want Louis words, he said he could not have defeated Marciano anyway. Another good boxer in Walcott floored Louis twice, and won the majority of the rounds if you combine both fights. And Chalres had his way. When Louis was in there with a man with skills, and his power didn’t bail him out early, his flaws were exposed.
What about these fights could give you anything but a high opinion of Louis's durability?

Quote:
Let’s use a modern day what if. Suppose Joe Clazahge at 168 pounds slapped Lennox Lewis or Wlad around the ring for 11 rounds, then did something stupid and got caught. Both men’s legacies would crash! But Louis for some reason is beyond such objective analysis. Never understood why.
Vitally Klitschko fought a future light heavyweigh who was not a big hitter in Chris Byrd.

He did not get staggered, or have to come from behind to win.

He simply got beaten outright.

That is the difference between a very good fighter and a great one.
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
>> For a guy who places a premium on spelling and grammar, you’re out to lunch. I posted the NY times round by round here on Jeffries vs. Corbett. Jeffries if you score the rounds based on the report was slightly ahead prior to the KO. I agree that Willard was behind, but the question to ask is when he would pick up the pace if the match was 25 or 20 rounds.





>>Donovan scored the fight 13-1 in favor of Farr according to Box Rec, who is missing a a round. Watch the fight moron. Farr won more than one round by any competent-fair judge. Donovan was anything but.







>>>Yes, the first Godoy fight was close. So what did Donovan score it 10-5 for Louis? A biased card if you watch the film. By the way, Donovan was not allowed to be the ref in the first Walcott fight. Walcott’s camp protested prior, and the replacement ref gave it to Walcott. In fact Donovan was not the ref in any of the Walcott’s fights. Your wrong again. I am wasting my time on a moron….



>>I said Louis had a significant advantage in weight and 3.5” in reach. Your reading comprehension is as bad as your reverse racism.
Here is the NY Times report of the Jeffries Corbett fight.including the 6th rd when Corbett staggered Jeffries and had him groggy.It also mentions Jeffries backhanding, and elbowing Corbett.
Read it again, and tell me Jeffries was in front .
I've watched Farr/Louis fight many times, my Father spoke to Farr who readily conceded Louis beat him,and he never presumed to say he had Louis groggy or staggered.

I never suggested that Donovan refereed either of the Walcott fights.
Don't call people lacking in reading comprehension if you can't digest a sentence yourself ,numb nuts.
You have the litary skills of a retarded chimp.
Reverse racism? My favourite heavyweight is Dempsey.Middleweight Greb.
You called me a moron twice, has it ever occurred to you that Donovan scored one round even?
You dont qualify to be a moron , you haven't the requisite amount of grey matter
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