If YOU were Joe Calzaghe, would you come out of retirement to fight Andre Ward?

[MAJR]

Originally Posted by Loudon

Hi mate, welcome to the forum.

We're not really saying Joe ducked anybody. We're saying that he didn't really chase the likes of Roy, like he claims.

An earlier fight with Roy, wasn't viable at all.

Bailey is trying to convince everyone on here, that Joe really wanted the fight, but couldn't get it. It's bullshit!


Regards, Loudon.

Personally, I think if it was possible at all for the fight to be made between 2000 and 2003 then Calzaghe would have taken it, but it wasn't possible.

Jones wasn't interested in Calzaghe, Calzaghe wasn't a big enough name to force Jones to fight and Calzaghe couldn't bring in the money that would justify making the fight. Instead Jones could achieve more and make more against Light Heavyweights in the US and moving up to beat Ruiz.

Calzaghe, meanwhile, was comfortable in his WBO bracket making money off of fighting whoever the WBO put in front of him. He'd never turn down a fight against a top teir fighter but he wouldn't go out of his way to make one either. He wanted Ottke but not badly enough to chase him - he beat the guys Ottke beat more convincingly but that was about it - he wanted Hopkins and Jones but was perfectly content to let them pass him up for more lucrative fights in the States.

I think that for the majority of his career Calzaghe was only in boxing for the money and didn't really care about his legacy but as he started to get old and his skill began to dwindle he starting thinking of his legacy, which is why he went that extra mile to go to the states to fight Hopkins.

[HoldMyBeer]

Originally Posted by NewsBoy

Calzaghe beating Hopkins trumps everything Ward did so far,

you may be right, but calzaghe still waited until hopkins was 40 and lost his grip at MW before fighting him

ward is making all the right moves

[The Spider]

It makes zero sense for Joe Calzaghe to come back full stop.

[HoldMyBeer]

Originally Posted by NewsBoy

Ya right.. Except after that fight Hopkins managed to beat a Prime Pavlik and a Prime Pascal, so he was obviously still an elite fighter.

...which is why i didnt dispute your point that calzaghe's win over hopkins is a better win than any one of ward's

that still doesnt change the fact that calzaghe did a lot of calling out with jones and hopkins, but waited until both were in their 40's and dethroned before fighting them

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by Loudon

Knockout,



Don't ever worry about that mate. You can reply 2 or 3 weeks later if need be.

Thanks, sorry if this post is terrible, I'm currently nursing a terrible hangover Got in at 5am this morning, and can't get back to sleep!

Haha! I'm the same, but I haven't got an iphone, so I'm always pinching my girlfriends, and her ipad too. Sometimes I come straight in the house, and just pick either one of them up straight away ha! I love this forum. Bailey's been working me hard this week though. I think I deserve to get paid for debating with him.

iphones are quality, especially compared to the old nokia I had before it! This forum can be hilarious, I wonder where MetalMandible went, he was a great poster, his threads were hilarious.

ha! I enjoy reading your debates, you two are like Morales-Barrera!

Yes it's a real shame that fight didn't come off. That would have been a great fight.




Again, both of those fights would have been great!



Yes, you would have to assume that Joe would have beaten the versions of Roy that they beat.

Yeah I think Joe would beat any version of Jones post Ruiz. I think if they fought between 2001-2003, whilst Roy was still elite, he wasn't quite as dynamic as he once was, that would have been a close fight. But a 1994 Roy Jones is simply too sharp, and too good for any SMW.

Possibly, but I definitely remember hearing it, rather than reading it. But it was a while ago.

ahh fair enough, I'll take your word for it. Joe was wrong to dismiss Tarver in 2004, as he was clearly one of the best fighters in the world at that time.

I'm not sure about that. I've read Zod's links earlier, and apparently he could have been mandatory to Gonzalez, had he moved up. Did Joe contemplate doing so, while Gonzalez was preparing for Erdei? Or was he not at all interested?

Yeah that's true, Joe was promised a fight with Gonzalez on the basis that he beat Mkertchyan, and it was scheduled in Cardiff and everything, then Gonzalez lost to Erdei and that ruined everything.

"Unless I do the job against Mkrtchyan all the plans will go up in smoke," he said.

"But if that goes well I have been promised a fight in Britain in May for the WBO light-heavyweight title, probably against current champion Julio Gonzalez.

"After that I want to fight Antonio Tarver, who gave Roy Jones Jr such a hard time.

"He's rated the No 1 light-heavy in the US, and I'm willing to go to his own backyard to beat the guy.

"If I do that, hopefully I'll get my recognition across the Atlantic."

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

That's a fair point, and we've discussed it before. But the difference is,

If he'd have moved up, as you say, it was only a possibility.

But if he didn't, he literally had no chance of getting the fight.

I agree, by staying at SMW he didn't put himself in the mix and can only have himself to blame.

So he was in a dilemma, and I respect that, but just how bad did he want Roy?

I honestly believe, that had he gone up when he had the opportunity in 1999, and put in Lacy type performances, they may have been a big demand for a fight between him and Roy.

At the end of the day, a possibility is better than nothing at all. Yes he could have moved up, and impressed, and at the end, he still may not have gotten the fight. I can appreciate that.

But he killed the chance altogether by remaining at 168.

If you want something bad enough, you have to take risks.

I can understand that Joe wanted to eventually unify at 168.


But he needed to make a choice.

Go all out for Roy, or forget about him and move on. He couldn't do both.

Roy was the unified 175 champ, and he had to give up his titles to move up for Ruiz, and to try and get Mike in the ring.

After Ruiz, he had to fight an extremely motivated Tarver, to try and win them back.

But again, I respect the tough position that Joe found himself in. But I think he should have gambled. In my honest opinion, he'd have won the 175 belt at some point down the line, before he retired. I honestly think that Joe moving up and winning a 175 title, would have been a bigger achievement than unifying against Kessler.

Yeah I can agree with that. Joe was an elite fighter, and I think he would have been a hit in the States if he went over earlier. I think if Joe was going to fight Roy, he would have wanted it on his terms, and when Roy was the biggest draw in the sport, the fight was always going to be on Roy's terms. Hence like you say, if Joe wasn't willing to make those concessions, he can't have wanted it that bad.

I respect that, but as mentioned above, I'm talking about him moving up 99/2000 when he was about 28.

I love reading the debates between you two. Your relationship with him, is like mine with Bailey.

I've never met anyone more argumentative ha!

It's all good fun though!

Yeah it's a laugh I'm going to go back on my word and reply to his posts in a bit to keep the fun going

[Loudon]

MAJR,

Hi, great post!

I agree with everything you've said.

You say, he'd never turn down a top tier fighter, but he wouldn't go out of his way to make one either.

Also, he wanted Jones, but was perfectly content to less them pass up for more lucrative fights in the States.

That's correct.

This is my whole argument.

If the fights were there for guaranteed money, he probably would have taken them, but if they weren't he was content doing what he was doing.

He did not go out of his way, to chase Roy Jones.

Joe saying that he chased Roy for 6 years, is complete and utter nonsense.


Regards, Loudon.

[SJS19]

Originally Posted by The Spider

It makes zero sense for Joe Calzaghe to come back full stop.

600 posts for someone to say that.

Jesus christ guys.

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by Loudon

Part 2.



I'm not sure how much he'd have got either.



I respect that he was trying to sell the fight, and it would have been ok, had he not dismissed him earlier on in the same year. But really, there was no going back after what he'd said in Feb/March.

Then you'd got Steve Bunce after Roy's fight with Trinidad saying "Well, Roy's got to do a lot more than that to get Joe in the ring."

Fast forward to November and he's saying the same as Joe "Roy's looking sharp, and he's back etc."

Fair enough, I know it's his job, but it was cringeworthy.

Even If Joe had've said "Roy's past his peak, but he's still very dangerous etc" That would have been ok. But he actually said in 2007 that "a fight with Roy would be pointless!" and then in 2008 he said "He'd be disappointed if Roy was to be his last fight."

When you've made comments like that, there's just no turning back.

There's nothing you could say, to undo that, apart from being brutally honest, and publicly admitting that you'd cashed out. Other than that, you'd just embarrass yourself.

I think Joe definitely embarrassed himself.

Coach Merk had to do everything he could to try and get Roy in the right mindset.

I didn't realise Roy had trouble getting motivated for the Calzaghe fight.

I appreciate that Joe hugely contradicted himself trying to make out that Roy was a threat by that stage. I don't think he really believed any of it. I bet Joe could hardly believe his luck, he got paid $10m to fight a Roy Jones who posed little threat. I didn't bother to stay up and watch that fight, I just caught the replay on Setanta in the morning. It was actually a great display by Joe, I think he would have beaten any LHW in the world at that time on that particular night.


Steve Bunce just tows the line I'm sure in a few years time he'll be telling us about how George Groves is the best SMW ever, would have beaten Benn, Eubank, Calzaghe etc.

Well my opinion is, Kelly didn't have Roy's fanbase, but the PPV numbers would have been much much higher for that fight. It all depends on what Joe's percentage would have been. But I think he'd have made more from Pavlik, even if a big promoter had been involved.

I don't think that Roy's fight with Joe created huge interest. They had problems selling the tickets, and the PPV numbers were poor. Maybe old fans were sentimental towards Roy, and hoped for one last great performance?

A pavlik fight definitely would have been a better fight.


Joe didn't get any respect for beating Roy, because it'd been done 4 years earlier.

If Joe had've hammered Pavlik like Hopkins, he'd have got huge respect, and would have been better though of.

Yeah Pavlik would have been a much better fight

But I don't think it would have drawn in similar PPV numbers. I don't think Joe would have gotten the same money. I remember them saying the PPV numbers weren't great because of the economic climate back at that time, it was bang in the middle of the recession.

I think Hopkins-Pavlik did even worse, and Bernard had a bigger US fanbase than Joe.

I think just because he's a better fighter than Jeff.

It depends what you class as a threat?

There's more chance of being hurt by Jeff, because Jeff had a fantastic, dangerous hook, that Andre doesn't have.

But I'm referring to the threat of losing.

I suppose it's like Nigel Benn, and James Toney for Roy.

Nigel Benn was so dangerous!

But I think Roy would have seen James as the biggest threat, because he was the better fighter.

It's only my opinion of course, but I think Joe would have had his zero threatened much more by Andre than Jeff.

Jeff was tough, but he's not a boxer, he's a fighter. Andre's not a fighter, he's a boxer. Joe could outbox Jeff, but could he outbox Andre? Possibly?

I'm certain that Joe would have feared Andre more.

I respect your opinion though.


As above, he was a powerhouse, but he couldn't match Joe for skill, like what Andre could.



Fair enough, again I respect your opinion. Maybe we'll have a better idea, as Andre's career progresses.

Sorry if I wasn't clear mate, Andre Ward is easily better than Lacy no doubt

My point was about perceived threats, and Lacy was perceived as a huge threat. He was bombing guys out. One thing I hate in boxing is the revisionism, people say the Lacy win wasn't much because of what he did after, but you have to look at where the fighters were going into the fight, and Lacy was the next big thing.

Ward though is the much better boxer, but lacks the punch. I don't think he has the same fear factor Lacy had. It's all hypothetical, but Joe had dealt with spoilers before, and he fought the ultimate spoiler in Hopkins and won.

I respect your opinion though

- Joe Calzaghe from the Jeff Lacy fight v Andre Ward from the Chad Dawson fight

If you had to, who would you put your money on?

I'll go with Calzaghe in a 116-112, or 115-113 type decision.

Fair point, but the circumstances are a little different.

Chad hasn't got a big fanbase, but everyone knows who he his. HBO, the casual fans etc, all know who Chad is.

Nobody in America knew much about Joe.

In 2002, nobody would have wanted to see that fight.

I think had Joe have decided to prolong his career, I think fans would have been interested in a Dawson fight.

But again, I get your point.

I agree that Dawson would have been the better, more interesting fight. But I disagree when you say in 2002 nobody wanted Jones-Calzaghe, there was demand and even Roy spoke about it after the Clinton Woods fight. I understand the reasoning that Joe didn't bring enough to the table, and it's similar with Dawson. He's the legit LHW champ, yet for his biggest fight he had to come all the way down to SMW, and travel into his opponents backyard. Dawson is a good fighter, but what did he bring to the table?

Thanks for taking the time to post up those links regarding Ward and Bute. I really appreciate that.

I wasn't aware of any of that.

I though it was Bute that wasn't interested. I'm surprised that Ward didn't push for the fight.

No worries, after Ward won the Super 6, the fight everyone wanted was against Bute.

Ward quickly dismissed Bute and said he has nothing to prove, and that he was taking a long lay off. Basically he didn't want to fight Bute. Which is fair enough, Ward has been on a tough run.

Then, bizarrely after Bute-Froch is signed and announced, Ward comes out and says oh that's a shame, I wanted to fight Bute.

That was a complete lie, he had his chance, Bute said he'd fight him in NYC, Vegas or Oakland and Ward ignored it, then made that comment months later.

If Carl beats Bute again, where does that leave Ward?

I don't think he'd want to unify with Carl.

Surely he'd have to move up to 175?

I think a rematch with Froch is high risk, low reward. I think Carl gave him a tough fight first time around, but Ward has nothing to prove by beating him again.

I read that Magee-Kessler is a box off to become Ward's mandatory, but surely no-one wants to see Ward-Kessler 2? I think Ward should stay busy and active, not fighting once a year like he's Floyd Mayweather, staying active is how you build a fanbase. Then the big fights will come up. I'd still like to see Ward-Bute, I know Froch thrashed Bute and Ward beat Froch, but styles make fights.

Thanks for your great reply.

Just reply back whenever you can. There's no rush at all.


Regards, Loudon.

No worries pal, get back to me when you can and have a good weekend

[knockout artist]

Zod, even though it's a waste of time, I'll go back on what I said before and respond to you. Even though we disagree on just about everything! I admire your persistence!

Originally Posted by general zod

So according to you Calzaghe did not have to clear out his division because Bute had just become a champion?
Please stop debating like a child

The above also applies to Calzaghe, but I notice you give him a pass for that.

Calzaghe cleared out the division, and was moving up to fight Hopkins. Hopkins or Bute, you tell me what was the better fight and better win for Joe at that time?

Bute made no effort to call out or make a fight with Calzaghe. Remember, Bute steered clear of the super 6 tournament, what makes you think he would have fought Calzaghe in 2007?

Please be serious

There would of been no point for Bute to make any offers anyway, especially if he watched that vid were Calzaghe dismisses him outright.Bute is not a big enough name? Funny how that works, did the world know who Kabery Salem was when Calzaghe fought him?



1: Are you sure about that? Was Bute not working his way up the WBO rankings when Calzaghe was the champion? Do you think he was working his way up to fight Calzaghe or because he wasn't ready for him?
2: Source?

Joe was absolutely right, nobody was calling for that fight in 2007!

As said before, please be serious

Team Calzaghe tried to make the fight in '99 and it was 'impossible' - Not Calzaghe's fault

Source?

I only know what ****** said about Beyer's terms, ****** never mentioned the details of his own terms.[/quote]


I don't know what ******'s terms were

Bizarre

The fact that they were willing to return to the negotiating table shows how serious they were about making the fight.

They basically agreed on a date, which ****** later on changed to a date they could not make and this helps you how exactly? Even if they had agreed on everything that still does not mean the fight would of happened, think Glen Johnson

Now you're contradicting yourself

You said Joe purposely avoided Beyer, if so, why was his team entering into negotiations with him!?


Anyway

He agreed to fight in him in 98 and then pulled out claiming to be injured
He agreed to fight him in 99(on HBO) and then pulled out claiming to be injured
He was an available opponent after the Telesco fight fell through and he was ignored

What made guys like Sheika and Salem more acceptable than Vanderpool?
If Calzaghe went on to fight Dawson or Bute than fair enough, but the fact he ignored them speaks for itself.

Are you still bringing up Bute?! This is why it's such a chore to respond to your posts, I know you're not being serious.

Sheika won a box off against Glen Johnson

Salem was a poor opponent, there's nothing more to add on that. But Joe fought Salem in 2004, after Vanderpool lost to Lacy. The Dawson fight wasn't viable until like 2007-2008, so Salem isn't really relevant here.


Once again, if Vanderpool had the IBF title instead of Lacy, and brought something to the table, then you'd have a strong argument, but we know that didn't happen

[knockout artist]

Originally Posted by general zod

Jones, who was 0-3 in his last 3 fights, was the opponent that Calzaghe wanted after he beat Lacy. It was ONLY after that fight fell apart, due to money issues, that he started to talk about Tarver again. (As if Tarver was going to leave HBO to fight on Showtime)

Right, if Tarver wouldn't fight on showtime, then what can Joe do??

7 Mar 06
Boxing: Calzaghe closing on Jones bout in summer.


13 Mar 06
Boxing: Calzaghe ready for dream tilt at Jones.


16 Apr 06
Boxing: YOU'RE GREEDY, JUNIOR; Calzaghe hits out at legend Roy.

Not sure what this has to do with anything

Either way he could of fought Tarver instead of shot Jones

08

Boxing: Best of US line up for a shot at Calzaghe

And you'd still be on here shooting down Joe for fighting Tarver after he'd been dethroned by Hopkins!

We know the time frame, and Tarver's demands of $6m to face Lacy in 2005. Calzaghe-Tarver wasn't really viable until 2008, and Tarver wasn't up to much at that point. On the other hand, Joe made $10m for fighting Jones, much more money than he would have made fighting Tarver

[knockout artist]

[quote=general zod;14118746]He wanted Toney to drop from HW to smw? What a brave man Calzaghe is



We don't see Andre Ward or Carl Froch calling out any Heavyweights

Lets think about this.

Ok I'm thinking

I made a point that Calzaghe missed every decent southpaw around. Your whole response was basically one long exercise in misdirection.

You're right in that Calzaghe didn't face the fighters you listed


You're wrong in saying that he purposely missed all of them because they were southpaws - That's my argument

-You make claims without providing sources
Bute said he wasn't ready?

I'm not going to flick through hours of footage and conferences, but in the build up to Bute-Froch, in one of the conferences Bute said so, he also said Calzaghe is his idol. As said I'm not going to go through all of those press conferences.

Let me ask you this though, when did Bute and his team ever express a desire to fight Calzaghe?

Do you think Bute would have? Considering he steered clear of the Super 6? It wasn't until 2012 - 5 years later - that he took a risk and stepped up his competition.


Making a fight with Beyer(99) was impossible?

-Constantly trying to shift the focus off of Calzaghe and on to his opponents.

Calzaghe dismissed Bute outright and your repsonse is to say Bute never made any offers. What about Calzaghe's lack of offers?

Bute again?

-Selective use of dates
Lets just ignore the fact that Calzaghe could of fought Tarver in 08

Right, when Tarver had been dethroned and brought little to the table in terms of revenue. Do you think after the Hopkins fight, the public would have paid to see Tarver again??? Joe beat the man who dethroned Tarver.

-strange logic
Calzaghe beat Kessler who beat Beyer?

Read on -

"We are very interested in this fight and are happy that England is interested as well," Sauerland said.

"But their current offer is not acceptable. It is not good enough financially and the date coincides with the football World Cup.

"But we are in talks and would love to stage this attractive bout in either September or October."

Sauerland's comments come less than six weeks after he claimed he "would not do any business with Frank ****** any more".

The row started after both managers had repeatedly failed to work out unification fights between Calzaghe and German former WBA/IBF champion Sven Ottke.

Sauerland explained: "For all intents we had agreed to the fight for October. Markus was going to go to fight Calzaghe in Britain and we were agreed but then Frank ****** came back and said he could only do it on the 9th September or 16th September because of TV (dates).

"Those dates were impossible for Markus, though, because in his last fight (a four round technical draw against Sakio Bika, May 13) he suffered two very bad cuts : and would not be able to train in time for an early September fight.

Now the fight didn't happen for whatever reason, but you don't go that far into negotiations if you purposely want to avoid southpaws! Do you see my point!?

The reason why fighters don't like southpaws is because their punches come at angles they are not used to.

Ok

How on earth is beating a orthodox fighter, who beat a southpaw, relevant in any way?

Because once Beyer lost his title, then the fight to be made was against Kessler!

Once Vanderpool lost to Lacy, the big money unification bout was against Lacy! Not Vanderpool

Once Hopkins beat Tarver and became the legit LHW champ, the fight to be made was against Hopkins. Not the out of shape, overweight Tarver! Who hasn't done a great deal since!


Now surely this makes sense!!

So I will ask the following questions:

Go ahead

1: Is Calzaghe's reason for refusing to fight Bute reasonable to you, and if yes why?

Refusing to fight Bute? Were there any offers ever made??

Let's assume he did - yes his reason was reasonable. Bute was little known, brought little money to the table, a title Calzaghe already won and vacated. Joe was looking to Hopkins, it was the fight everyone wanted, and it gave Joe the chance to make history by becoming a two weight champ and beating a great fighter in Bernard, while making his debut on US soil. Fighting Bute would have been seen as a soft touch, against a novice for a title Joe had already won.

Do you disagree with that?

If so, tell me why he should have fought Bute, and what did Bute bring to the table at that time, that would have made it a more profitable and significant fight than against Hopkins or Kessler.

2: Do you think shot Jones was a better opponent that Tarver or Dawson?

Of course not, it was a payday to retire on. Tarver and Dawson bring little to the table in terms of PPV revenue, whilst Joe made $10m fighting Roy Jones. I know the Calzaghe-Jones fight wasn't a massive success - but he still made more money fighting Roy than he would have facing Tarver or Dawson and you can't argue with that.

3: Why was a fight with Liles not viable?

In all honesty, I don't really know if there was any dialogue at all between their camps. It takes two to tango, did Frankie Liles ever express a desire to fight Calzaghe? Maybe Joe purposely steered clear, maybe not, I don't know. It's unfair to lay all the blame on Joe every time though


Anyways, I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one, as it's just going to go round in circles and we won't achieve anything. If you want a decent debate, get back to me on any topic that isn't to do with Joe Calzaghe To be honest I don't have the patience to go over all this again, it's mind numbing!

[Loudon]

Originally Posted by NewsBoy

Calzaghe would have beaten the shit out of James Toney.

When? Which version?

A young in shape Toney, was an awesome fighter!

[ripcity]

ye$$$$$$$

[IGIFTK]

Not at the age of 40, c'mon son.

[Alo2006]

Ward would beat him wide UD, which he wouldn't really get credit for.