Haye v Dempsey

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by RockyJim

This is a joke...right? What a crock to compare Haye against Jack Dempsey...Dempsey by murder...

Go troll elsewhere.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Did he really unify the cw division ? He beat two of the titlists. He didn't fight the IBF champion. He didn't do much to establish himself as the best available challenger for Wlad - I mean, he was not a stand-out challenger in pure fighting terms. He was just the latest in a long line of undistinguished challengers. He established himself as a big payday. He held the WBA title - but so did Valuev, and Ruiz. He was just successor to those old relics. Wlad should have had that WBA belt anyway, since beating Chagaev, but the WBA have some funny rules.

yes jmm unified with Braithwaite and bell. Hate knocked him out and further unified with enzo. He was wholly unified.

He was quite clearly the standout challenger to wlad as anyone following the sport could tell you.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Yes the IBF was plastic having been stripped from the Bell-Mormeck unification, no he didn't beat 'titlists' he beat the man in the division and a titlist too

That's fine. But beating Mormeck amounts to zero in the heavyweight scheme. Of course it's probably still better than beating Audley Harrison.

Anyway Dempsey fans downplaying Haye's record when Dempsey's is just as bad especially with the losses to fatboy Meehan

Meehan danced and spoiled his way to a couple of decisions in 4-round charity bouts. Dempsey had him down and almost out in the last fight. Yes, it hurts Dempsey's reputation. But of course nothing like that would happen to Haye. He hardly ever fights, nevermind going on tour fighting professionals for charity.
It's silly to compare.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

That's fine. But beating Mormeck amounts to zero in the heavyweight scheme. Of course it's probably still better than beating Audley Harrison.



Meehan danced and spoiled his way to a couple of decisions in 4-round charity bouts. Dempsey had him down and almost out in the last fight. Yes, it hurts Dempsey's reputation. But of course nothing like that would happen to Haye. He hardly ever fights, nevermind going on tour fighting professionals for charity.
It's silly to compare.

The majority of jacks best victories took place below the cruiser limit.

Fulton, firpo and Willard aren't exactly leagues above value, Ruiz and chisora.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

He was quite clearly the standout challenger to wlad as anyone following the sport could tell you.

What had he done to STAND OUT ?
(Apart from shoot his mouth off.)

Ruiz was his best win. Ruiz hadn't a win over a legit contender in years. 38 years old, a relic, never exactly a killer. He had a pedestrian win over Adnan Serin in the previous 20 months. He was no longer relevant.
That's Haye's best win.

.. or Valuev. Haye pipped the giant in uninspiring fashion, a fighter who'd been lucky to get decision over 46 year-old Holyfield.


^ THAT IS IT.
If I mention any of Haye's other HW wins, nothing good can be said. They are best forgotten.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

What had he done to STAND OUT ?
(Apart from shoot his mouth off.)

Ruiz was his best win. Ruiz hadn't a win over a legit contender in years. 38 years old, a relic, never exactly a killer. He had a pedestrian win over Adnan Serin in the previous 20 months. He was no longer relevant.
That's Haye's best win.

.. or Valuev. Haye pipped the giant in uninspiring fashion, a fighter who'd been lucky to get decision over 46 year-old Holyfield.


^ THAT IS IT.
If I mention any of Haye's other HW wins, nothing good can be said. They are best forgotten.

Hmm you saved me the bother of having to answer.

That's what established him as standout, combined with his cw unification.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

The majority of jacks best victories took place below the cruiser limit.

That's true. I'd pick Dempsey's sub-200 men over Haye's.

Fulton, firpo and Willard aren't exactly leagues above value, Ruiz and chisora.

I rate Chisora as Haye's best win, all things considered.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Hmm you saved me the bother of having to answer.

That's what established him as standout, combined with his cw unification.

Strange's definition of "stand out".
Beating two relics who were hardly relevant any more.

Like I said, Haye stood out because of his mouth. Is that was you are refering too ?

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Strange's definition of "stand out".
Beating two relics who were hardly relevant any more.

Like I said, Haye stood out because of his mouth. Is that was you are refering too ?

the definition of stand out is that it was a fight everyone wanted to see. Hate unified cw and then defeated Barret, value, and Ruiz to secure a consensus number 3 ranking.

It's a very recent fight, I'm surprised you don't recall the demand for the fight.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

That's fine. But beating Mormeck amounts to zero in the heavyweight scheme. Of course it's probably still better than beating Audley Harrison.

Meehan danced and spoiled his way to a couple of decisions in 4-round charity bouts. Dempsey had him down and almost out in the last fight. Yes, it hurts Dempsey's reputation. But of course nothing like that would happen to Haye. He hardly ever fights, nevermind going on tour fighting professionals for charity.
It's silly to compare.

Audley was a joke fight, but if you look at it, was a European champion really less than a weight lifter cum boxer in Firpo?

As mentioned Dempsey himself only had 3-4 significant fights against 200+ pound men, Mormeck was bigger than most of his opponents

Both Haye and Dempsey became semi-retired

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Strange's definition of "stand out".
Beating two relics who were hardly relevant any more.

Like I said, Haye stood out because of his mouth. Is that was you are refering too ?

Both Ruiz/Valuev were around the same age as Willard and equally as successful in their era

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

I rate Chisora as Haye's best win, all things considered.

I'd agree, as a performance, I think Chisora is overall his best HW opponent, against a bigger pressure fighter who stylistically doesn't suit him

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

the definition of stand out is that it was a fight everyone wanted to see. Hate unified cw and then defeated Barret, value, and Ruiz to secure a consensus number 3 ranking.

It's a very recent fight, I'm surprised you don't recall the demand for the fight.

I've never doubted the demand for the fight.

What I said was : "He didn't do much to establish himself as the best available challenger for Wlad - I mean, he was not a stand-out challenger in pure fighting terms."

The never said he didn't stand out in publicity terms. In fact I'm at pains to explain that that is very much what he did !

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

I've never doubted the demand for the fight.

What I said was : "He didn't do much to establish himself as the best available challenger for Wlad - I mean, he was not a stand-out challenger in pure fighting terms."

The never said he didn't stand out in publicity terms. In fact I'm at pains to explain that that is very much what he did !

Well unifying the cw division and beating Barret, valuev and Ruiz was enough obviously as Boone else in the did any more than that.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Audley was a joke fight, but if you look at it, was a European champion really less than a weight lifter cum boxer in Firpo?

Yes, Audley was less than Firpo. By a big margin.
Audley was somehow a European champion but there were dozens of fighters in Europe you'd expect to beat him from pillar to post. There's probably men in Audley's local area who could beat him.
Seriously.

Both Ruiz/Valuev were around the same age as Willard and equally as successful in their era

Haye didn't beat them in the same manner as Dempsey thrashed Willard.

Honestly, if Haye had destroyed Valuev in a few rounds, I'd be rating him a lot higher. There's no evidence that he was good enough to do it.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Well unifying the cw division and beating Barret, valuev and Ruiz was enough obviously as Boone else in the did any more than that.

As I said : "He was just the latest in a long line of undistinguished challengers."

He did enough to qualify in division of mediocre contenders.
To me, that's different to being a "STAND OUT".

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

As I said : "He was just the latest in a long line of undistinguished challengers."

He did enough to qualify in division of mediocre contenders.
To me, that's different to being a "STAND OUT".

Well as a challenger he stood out above the others. Id argue that as a former unified champion he was actually distinguished.