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Old 07-07-2012, 02:55 PM   #31
Sangria
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Hands of Iron View Post
Bigger top end names yes, although Tyson wiped about about twice as many rated heavyweights and had a title reign to speak of. Yes, he ran into Ali and was the Dope in the Rope-a-Dope and a huge reason Ali is GOAT -- he shouldnt of won.
This. Foreman has bigger names at the top of his list but Tyson runs deeper. I give Tyson the edge.


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Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
I'd argue Holmes has a better resume, in some ways similar, but with more longevity. Although Holmes didn't tear through his opposition like Tyson did he has incredible depth and arguably has the bigger win of the two (prime Mercer) and you could argue the Norton win as well (although slightly past his best) another point that could be significant is that quite a few opponents Tyson faced, where worse versions that had previously been matched up against Holmes Williams/Smith/Berbick/Holyfield/Frazier

Now I'm sure you'd counter with the argument that Tyson did better against the opposition, but did he really do that much better if at all? Frazier was stopped in 1 by both men. Even. Berbick dominated decision by Holmes, taken out early from Tyson. Edge to Tyson so far. Smith stopped in 12 by Holmes, UD12 Tyson. Even again. Holyfield, Tyson stopped in 11, Holmes close but clear UD to Holyfield. slight edge to Holmes as Tyson only had 3 rounds in the bank. Williams, comfortable decision (some saw it quite close) Tyson KO1 even again. Berbick shutout decision to Holmes, Tyson KO2. Edge to Tyson and overall.

Considering this is one if Tysons main arguments in the way he beat his opposition, with the common opponents with Holmes, he hasnt done that much better at all, and especially when you take into account that Holmes was fighting better versions of most, if not all of them. A long with wins that aren't matchable on Holmes resume like Witherspoon, Norton and Mercer which personally are better than any of Tysons wins, Spinks being the only man that comes close to these 3 IMO shows Larry clearly has the better resume.

However I realise you haven't openly disagreed with this point (although you may well do) and that you probably have Holmes above Tyson in your heavyweight rankings anyway.

Looking better against the same opposition isn't a big concern with my criteria for greatness, but how are more established versions of Berbick, Smith and Williams that Tyson fought worse than the inexperienced versions Holmes fought? Berbick just beat Thomas while Bonecrusher just beat Witherspoon before facing Tyson.

I also give Tyson credit for dismantling Thomas, Holmes and Spinks. Thomas and Holmes came to fight and I disagree with those who claim Holmes only fought for a paycheck. This is a bullshit excuse only because Larry got his head handed to him. Holmes is an all time great who cares about his legacy and his place in heavyweight history. He was a seasoned veteran champion who knew 3 full months in advance he was going to face Tyson. The match was even talked about in 1986.

Holmes simply never matched up well with Tyson and because Mike beat him easy his detractors tend to undermine the quality of the win. I find it hard to believe at the age of 42 Holmes was somehow better. I don't care how many tune ups Holmes had, beating the likes of Tim Anderson and Eddie Gonzalez doesn't prepare you any more for a title shot. The only reason Holmes fought these jobbers was because he took the Foreman route to get a shot at the title. You're not getting better 4 years later at the age of 42.

Holmes has longevity on Tyson but didn't face the amount of #1 contenders Tyson did. And how can Holmes have the better win (Mercer) when Tyson beat a better, younger version of Holmes? Tyson TKO4 Holmes is better than a 42 year old Holmes UD 12 Mercer.

I have Holmes and Tyson's opposition even. Holmes has longevity, Tyson has the more destructive wins.
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:57 AM   #32
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

Assuming an "A" would be a prime Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis, and a "B" a prime Lennox Lewis perhaps, here's mine ..

Trevor Berbick : D .... tough, strong, well-conditioned fighter.
Boncrusher Smith : D ... good puncher, strong, good chin.
Pinklon Thomas : D ... good, VERY durable, good jab, bit faded.
Tony Tucker : D ... good boxer, untested, tall.
Tyrell Biggs : E ... decent skills, gutsy, unconvincing as a pro, struggled against fringe contenders.
Holmes : D .... had seen better days, took the fight for the payday.
Tubbs : D ... a fancy dan, cute boxer. Fat, out of shape.
Spinks : D ... good fighter, looking towards retirement, untested against live young HWs
Bruno : D ... big, strong, powerful manufactured fighter.
Williams : D ... good boxer, suspect chin.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:56 AM   #33
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
I always look forward to your wording as you do give good insight despite the knocks/humor.





Overall, I think the 80's had some talent with some serious issues and there were major problem with keeping things together.

These three athletes: what did they all have in common?

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
cocaine jack !
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:33 AM   #34
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

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Originally Posted by suzieq49 View Post
here is your ranking system(in specific order)

1. Head to head ability the night he fought tyson
2. Accomplishments heading into the fight
3. Reputation at time holmes fought him
4. Accomplishments post fight
5. World rating


my report card

vs trevor berbick 1986: Grade: B

vs bonecrusher smith 1987: Grade: B-

vs pinklon thomas 1987: Grade: B+

vs tony tucker 1987: Grade: B+

vs tyrell biggs 1987: Grade: B+

vs larry holmes 1988: Grade: B+

vs tony tubbs 1988: Grade: B

vs michael spinks 1988: Grade: A-

vs frank bruno 1989: Grade: B-

vs carl williams 1989: Grade: B-

.
.

Last edited by NoNeck; 11-04-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:19 PM   #35
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Assuming an "A" would be a prime Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis, and a "B" a prime Lennox Lewis perhaps, here's mine ..

Trevor Berbick : D .... tough, strong, well-conditioned fighter.
Boncrusher Smith : D ... good puncher, strong, good chin.
Pinklon Thomas : D ... good, VERY durable, good jab, bit faded.
Tony Tucker : D ... good boxer, untested, tall.
Tyrell Biggs : E ... decent skills, gutsy, unconvincing as a pro, struggled against fringe contenders.
Holmes : D .... had seen better days, took the fight for the payday.
Tubbs : D ... a fancy dan, cute boxer. Fat, out of shape.
Spinks : D ... good fighter, looking towards retirement, untested against live young HWs
Bruno : D ... big, strong, powerful manufactured fighter.
Williams : D ... good boxer, suspect chin.
Theres something funny about your grading....
: D
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:50 PM   #36
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

Tyson haters are a joke

He cleaned out the division and exploded to the top fighting the best available

If you're going to nitpick then nobody has a good resume

Trevor Berbick 1986: Grade: B+ ... Berbick was on a winning streak and just "upset" Pinklon Thomas and Tyson completely and thoroughly destroyed him

Bonecrusher Smith 1987: Grade: B+ ... Came off KOing Tim Witherspoon in 1 round ... would've been KOed if he didn't hold on the entire fight, disgracefully. Was an older guy though.

Pinklon Thomas 1987: Grade: B ... Was never KOed prior to Tyson ... did lose to Berbick recently in a decision ... Iron chin but was KOed by Mike.

Tony Tucker 1987: Grade: A- ... probably the toughest fight for Mike out of this list ... Tucker was undefeated and was clearly the best heavyweight besides Mike and was in his prime ... he continued to win even after losing to Mike and only lost a decision to Lewis many years later ... this was Mike's best win

Tyrell Biggs 1987: Grade: B ... Average ... not much to say

Larry Holmes 1988: Grade: B+ ... Holmes was still very good even after losing to Spinks and taking a 2 year layoff ... his record after Tyson proves that ... and was never KOed before fighting Mike

Tony Tubbs 1988: Grade: B+ ... Never been stopped before Tyson and had a great chin but Tyson cracked it ... good fighter, despite being overweight

Michael Spinks 1988: Grade: A- ... Undefeated and just came off beating Cooney and Holmes twice ... but was completely vanquished in the biggest fight of his career ... again never KOed before Mike

Frank Bruno 1989: Grade: B+ ... Hard hitter and a dangerous opponent

vs Carl Williams 1989: Grade: B
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:55 PM   #37
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

vs Trevor Berbick 1986: Grade: B+
Who the hell else was Tyson supposed to fight. Berbick owned the bauble. The same people who give Berbick a D will give Tommy Burns an A for Jack Johnson. But the story is the same. The road to the title ran through these fighters.

vs Bonecrusher Smith 1987: Grade: B
Huge puncher, physically imposing, decent skills. Learned under fire. On a roll when he met Mike.

Pinklon Thomas 1987: Grade: A
Crafty, strong, great jab. Oh, but some will say he liked to party. So did Tyson, so did Jack Johnson, so did Joe Louis, so did Liston... So what?

vs Tony Tucker 1987: Grade: A
Tall, strong well-groomed product of a great amateur system. Coming off excellent wins over Broad and Douglas.

vs Tyrell Biggs 1987: Grade: B+
Here Tyson nips a future threat in the bud. An up and comer who Tyson destroyed and cocaine buried.

vs Larry Holmes 1988: Grade: A
Hubris on Larry's part but he would come back to defeat prime timers half a decade later. Great changing of the guard win which is de rigueur for any great champ.

vs Tony Tubbs 1988: Grade: A
One of the fastest, slickest heavyweights to ever grace a ring. Annihilated.

vs Michael Spinks 1988: Grade: A+
In custom of Carpentier, Ketchel, Foster, Conn... Tyson utterly destroys a great light heavy... but this time one was good enough to have the title!

vs Frank Bruno 1989: Grade: A
Powerful, game fighter who would have been a factor in any era. Great, hard jab. Pulverizing right hand. A bit stiff but many of the giants of the ring have been.

vs Carl Williams 1989: Grade: B+
Top level athlete. I believe he did the decathlon in track. Got robbed against Holmes. A dangerous opponent at the time.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:22 AM   #38
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

I don't understand some of these grade systems being used.

How the **** can Frank Bruno be an "A" opponent ?
An A opponent would be a primed all-time great surely, or something close to it.

If Bruno's an A, what would a prime Ali be ?
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:26 AM   #39
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I don't understand some of these grade systems being used.

How the **** can Frank Bruno be an "A" opponent ?
An A opponent would be a primed all-time great surely, or something close to it.

If Bruno's an A, what would a prime Ali be ?
I did think this. Seamus' rating of Spinks as an A+ seems ridiculous, as it would appear to suggest he's up their as a H2H ATG at heavyweight. However if you look at Suzie's criteria it can easily be justified. We're not talking about grading them as a heavyweight in the grand scheme of boxings history, but merely comparing to the best available opposition at the time and how they were perceived before they fought Tyson
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:32 AM   #40
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

man when i see that anybody ranked pinklon thomas or Biggy as a c fighter...thats make me crasy
look the fight biggs vs Stevenson and youre see his class
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:36 AM   #41
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
I did think this. Seamus' rating of Spinks as an A+ seems ridiculous, as it would appear to suggest he's up their as a H2H ATG at heavyweight. However if you look at Suzie's criteria it can easily be justified. We're not talking about grading them as a heavyweight in the grand scheme of boxings history, but merely comparing to the best available opposition at the time and how they were perceived before they fought Tyson
Perhaps a bit overboard but I think you see where I am coming from.
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:46 PM   #42
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I don't understand some of these grade systems being used.

How the **** can Frank Bruno be an "A" opponent ?
An A opponent would be a primed all-time great surely, or something close to it.

If Bruno's an A, what would a prime Ali be ?
So prime Ali would dominate these opponents better than Tyson? I dont think so. Surely these would be B level opponents for Ali as well. Certainly not D and E like your post.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:27 PM   #43
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

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Originally Posted by salty trunks View Post
So prime Ali would dominate these opponents better than Tyson? I dont think so. Surely these would be B level opponents for Ali as well. Certainly not D and E like your post.
I'm not saying prime Ali would do better than Tyson.

I'm saying an A (or maybe an A+ if you like) would be the best possible quality of opponent a champion could face ever.

Ali in his prime would be an A.
Ali post-prime would drop to a B.
By the time he faces Leon Spinks he'd be a D or an E himself !

Muhammad Ali probably only beat 1 or 2 A opponents himself, Foreman and Liston. Perhaps Frazier was an A- or a B when Ali beat him.

The men Tyson beat were a couple of notches below a prime Foreman, imo.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:47 PM   #44
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I'm not saying prime Ali would do better than Tyson.

I'm saying an A (or maybe an A+ if you like) would be the best possible quality of opponent a champion could face ever.

Ali in his prime would be an A.
Ali post-prime would drop to a B.
By the time he faces Leon Spinks he'd be a D or an E himself !

Muhammad Ali probably only beat 1 or 2 A opponents himself, Foreman and Liston. Perhaps Frazier was an A- or a B when Ali beat him.

The men Tyson beat were a couple of notches below a prime Foreman, imo.
Where not talking about grades in terms of their H2H ability or level of win compared to the greatest heavyweights of all time. Did you even read my post or more importantly the OP?
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:16 PM   #45
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Default Re: Give each of Mike Tyson's title opponents a letter grade

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Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
Where not talking about grades in terms of their H2H ability or level of win compared to the greatest heavyweights of all time. Did you even read my post or more importantly the OP?
I read your post and I re-checked the OP.

SuzieQ explicitly included h2h ability and listed 5 criteria in total.

Four of those five criteria can only easily be measured against the high standard.
Those were - h2h ability, accomplishments leading into fight, reputation at time of fight, and accomplishments after fight.
Those 4 criteria suggest we are rating h2h and "career accomplishment" and "reputation" .... there's no easy way to grade those things unless you are rating against an all-time standard or an absolute standard.

The fifth critera was "world rating" and is self-explanatory.
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