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View Poll Results: How Good Was Dempsey's Victory Over Sharkey, 1-10?
1 2 6.90%
2 0 0%
3 2 6.90%
4 1 3.45%
5 2 6.90%
6 4 13.79%
7 9 31.03%
8 7 24.14%
9 2 6.90%
10 0 0%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-05-2012, 11:14 AM   #46
lufcrazy
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

Something a bit understated is jack, iirc, was just under 200 for this fight and carried his weight pretty well. Not too hard to imagine him being about the same size as Frazier with more modern training.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:45 AM   #47
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

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Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie View Post
Just to play Devils Advocate but who did Dempsey ever break down over the stretch and which fight did he end up turning the tide after having been beaten for the 1st half of a fight? IIRC there are no such examples and Dempsey never KO'd someone beyond the 6th round (excluding this fight of course).
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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
"who did Dempsey ever break down over the stretch and which fight did he end up turning the tide after having been beaten for the 1st half of the fight?"

Bill Brennan--1920
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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Would that be because Dempsey kod the vast majority of his opposition early?
Off the top of my head I think he only went that distance around 12 times ,two of which he lost ,to Tunney, one a dec win with Gibbons , one a draw with Miske.
He did score three late kos when he was a novice,and ,as has been said he stopped Brennan late.
Should we penalise him for taking opponents out early?

Dempsey was getting back in the fight ,his corner instructions were "keep pounding them in to his body", Sharkey was starting to wilt a bit imo. He was in front but the gap was closing, because he was fighting Dempsey's fight.
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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
You beat me to it !

The Bill Brennan fight completely fits the description MadcapMaxie is looking for.
well there you have it
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:25 AM   #48
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

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Originally Posted by Colonel Sanders View Post
well there you have it
Well that settles it then .

And no to whoever said I was penalising him for taking out his opponents early, it's just I've never seen Dempsey as a Marciano-esque type guy being able to grind his man down after being beaten the first half of a fight. Particularly since Dempsey was past-prime and just coming from what would be the worst beating of his career (Tunney I).
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:27 AM   #49
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
I'll go with a 5. Sharkey was a prime, future world champion...a great opponent. The only problem is sharkey kicked the living shit out of Jack Dempsey. Nearly knocked him out in round 1, and won 5 of the first 6 rounds on my card. He was well on his way to a 98-92 type unanimous decision victory. Dempsey knew this, so he hit him blatantly in the balls. After getting knocked down with the left hook to the head, sharkey can be seen clutching his balls while down on the canvas. Why would sharkey be grabbing his balls so blatantly if his head was so "buzzed" from a left hook? The referee should have been suspended for counting Sharkey out, instead of giving him 5 minutes to recover from the low blows.

Too much controversy to rate this victory high, and Dempsey was getting exposed by Sharkey big time.


Tunney- Sharkey should have happened in 1927
Same here. Sharkey was a name, but the result due to the foul was poor.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:27 AM   #50
edward morbius
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

There was a thread about fights in which one disagrees with the consensus. I didn't post there but if I did I would post this fight for two main reasons

1--Sharkey was well ahead?

The film, for me, shows a competitive fight, and from the weak evidence I have been able to dig up, the official scoring was also close.

2--Sharkey was fouled?

I don't see this on the film. It seems to be drawing conclusions from Sharkey's actions. The problem is Sharkey doesn't seem at all in trouble until he was hit on the chin. Three possible explanations come to mind. Sharkey was acting. Sharkey hurt himself by landing wrong when he went hard to the canvas. The blow to the chin effected nerves running down his body (this last is not as far-fetched as you might think) causing the bizarre reaction we see.

**bottom line--I don't see devaluing this victory on either basis.

Last edited by edward morbius; 11-06-2012 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:01 PM   #51
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

Quote:
Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
There was a thread about fights in which one disagrees with the consensus. I didn't post there but if I did I would post this fight for two main reasons

1--Sharkey was well ahead?

The film, for me, shows a competitive fight, and from the weak evidence I have been able to dig up, the official scoring was also close.

2--Sharkey was fouled?

I don't see this on the film. It seems to be drawing conclusions from Sharkey's actions. The problem is Sharkey doesn't seem at all in trouble until he was hit on the chin. Three possible explanations come to mind. Sharkey was acting. Sharkey hurt himself by landing wrong when he went hard to the canvas. The blow to the chin effected nerves running down his body (this last is not as far-fetched as you might think) causing the bizarre reaction we see.

**bottom line--I don't see devaluing this victory on either basis.
Edward, check out the link I left on the 2nd page - comment #18, it's the KO only and a better qualty than the film of the entire fight. You can clearly see just before Sharkey complains to the ref that Dempsey is working the right hand a bit low and the last one caused Jack to yell at the ref. I don't think they were that hard. I really never saw Dempsey draw his arm back for a good wallop to the twins but when Dempsey landed the left to the jaw I believe Sharkey tried to take advantage of the low shots. Sharkey had taken some really good shots to the jaw with no effect and the way he fell makes me believe it wouldn't have dropped him at all. He didn't fall wrong. He had his senses and the clarity to begin clutching the twins and continued the charade after being counted out, dragging his feet to his corner. I think Sharkey was a fine fighter, very underrated, but on this night he tried to take it on a DQ and when it didn't happen he was stuck with that story for life.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:06 PM   #52
edward morbius
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

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Originally Posted by scartissue View Post
Edward, check out the link I left on the 2nd page - comment #18, it's the KO only and a better qualty than the film of the entire fight. You can clearly see just before Sharkey complains to the ref that Dempsey is working the right hand a bit low and the last one caused Jack to yell at the ref. I don't think they were that hard. I really never saw Dempsey draw his arm back for a good wallop to the twins but when Dempsey landed the left to the jaw I believe Sharkey tried to take advantage of the low shots. Sharkey had taken some really good shots to the jaw with no effect and the way he fell makes me believe it wouldn't have dropped him at all. He didn't fall wrong. He had his senses and the clarity to begin clutching the twins and continued the charade after being counted out, dragging his feet to his corner. I think Sharkey was a fine fighter, very underrated, but on this night he tried to take it on a DQ and when it didn't happen he was stuck with that story for life.
scartissue--thank you for putting up this very clear film. It is the best I have seen.

1--I see no real low punches. Two of the three right hands appeared to me to be above the beltline. Only one was at the beltline, but hardly low enough to cause clutching the balls. Just what I see

2--"the way he fell"--I would have an entirely different take. Sharkey turned his head back and didn't even see that left hook coming. It caught him right on the point of the chin. He went down like he was shot. I think there is no way he could have reacted that fast to fake a knockdown that quickly and that convincingly. Also his facial expression looked out of it when I stopped the film. I think regardless of anything else he was out of it for some seconds and dropped hard. There is no faking there.

3--What gives all the credence to the foul talk is his clutching his groin and the way his legs splayed when he was carried to the corner, but there is something called reflected pain or reflected reaction. An extreme form is someone feeling pain in the fingers after the arm has been amputated. It is nerves reacting from somewhere else. My best guess is that this is what happened here. The blow to the chin effected a nerve running down his body.

There simply is no blow to the groin on the film to produce groin pain.

Just what I see, and thanks again for posting this very clear film.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:19 PM   #53
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

tbh, low blows happen in boxing.

as stated, jack hit jack after the bell beforehand anyways.

as far as come from behind knockouts go, this is a very good one. I'm happy with my 7/8 score, would have been higher had Sharkey gone on to be a great champion (say beating Schmelling, Carnera and only losing to the rampaging Baer)
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:34 PM   #54
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

Quote:
Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
The blow to the chin effected a nerve running down his body.

There simply is no blow to the groin on the film to produce groin pain.

Just what I see, and thanks again for posting this very clear film.

I love you Ray Charles, Im so glad to hear reports of your death were exaggerated.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:38 PM   #55
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

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Old 11-07-2012, 09:46 AM   #56
edward morbius
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post

Motion pictures were invented back in the 1870's when a rich guy put up money for someone to prove a horse has all four hooves off the ground at some time while galloping. A still frame proved it.

As a motion picture is a series of still pictures, the proving of a foul should be very easy in the case of a filmed fight.

Put up a still frame of the foul.

If you can't . . .

scoffing doesn't cut it.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:22 PM   #57
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

delete
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:35 PM   #58
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Default Re: Please, Rank The Victory: Volume 1: Jack Dempsey KO7 Jack Sharkey

Scar Tissues link
KO at 0:40
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Really not sure what sort of state sharkey was in. He did seem able to catch his fall a bit. Don't really know what shape his legs were in. Moved his hand low twice, the second time interupting his crawling efforts.
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