Dillian Whyte tests positive for banned substance

[Big Ears]

Originally Posted by im sparticus

Where is this news released from?
Why would boxer take arganine? As far as i can see arganine can be counterproductive. I just dont agree thatjacked is a suitable supp for boxeres. And dimethylamylamine can be obtained on its own. Although you are right ot isnt easy to source

It's been reported by boxrec, The Sun and 'The Scene' among others, yes it's not exactly the BBC, but it seems likely that what has been reported is genuine and he's been banned for DMAA.

L-Arginine is a precursor to Nitric Oxide, and has been reported to endogenously increase the levels of Nitric Oxide in the body, which itself has been shown to improve performance will improve endurance. Now the effectiveness of L-Arginine actually increasing levels of Nitric Oxide in the body other than in those low in Arginine is highly debatable and therefore the likelyhood it will improve performance in the majority is imo quite low.

However Dietary Nitrate supplementation has shown to be an effective method of increasing levels of Nitric Oxide and improving endurance performance in both both acute and chronic doses (dosing periods ranging from 1 day to 15 days) and there is some evidence to suggest it may be able to increase strength levels when taken over a chronic period. As I mentioned before you can buy concentrated shots of beetroot juice to achieve this, although it is also possible through changes in the diet and consuming more leafy greens and other vegetables high in dietary nitrate such as beetroot.

Is JackEd suitable for boxers ?, well the original clearly isn't because it's banned. Is the new one ?, well that's up to the fighter if they feel they need a pre workout supplement. It certain seems to have benefits for usage during weight and resistance sessions so from that point of view you could make a case for it.
However Most of the ingredients in it I would deem to be pretty useless and I would suggest using caffeine powder instead as I stated before, but the power of placebo is very strong. Dr Ben Goldacre (author of a decent book called Bad Science) has commented on this many times and paraphrasing: It has been shown that when people take a painkiller like paracetamol/Ibuprofen, they report lower levels of pain when the pill has come from a shiny box than cost a few quid, rather than a cheap one which looks like it cost 20p, with the same actual dose involved. So maybe that big price tag and shiny packaging will help them lift more, gain a little more mass, get a little stronger and possibly improve their boxing performance as a result.

Originally Posted by im sparticus

Its for bodybuilding not strength training (2 different things)

It's for both as far as I'm aware. Pre workout supplements are not designed to add mass directly. They are designed to increase strength and endurance and therefore athletes can train harder/longer and get gains from this. The Creatine, Beta-Alanine, Arginine and other compounds are in there to supposedly improve endurance, and you're right that these are not there for strength training purposes, they are there to increase the amount of reps/sets that may be performed in order to induce hypertrophy. Stimulants like caffeine and DMAA on the other hand are, they are included for the purpose of helping you to lift more, although also lift more for more reps.
So from that point of view the supplement could be used for bodybuilding or strength training.

I personally do not and have not taken any pre workout supplements, while I was training for Boxing, Gaelic Football, Rugby League/Union, bar on a handful of occasions (during weight sessions) out of curiosity to see their effect and if they were any use. I simply do/did not feel the need as I believe strong motivation can largely make up for the kick that you get from stimulants, and you don't have that risk of disturbing sleep. Not to mention these supplements are very expensive.

Of course my beliefs on many of these substances could prove to be incorrect. There is research out there to suggest Beta-Alanine, L-Arginine, L-Citrulline etc etc is succesful at improving performance, most of this is imo poor research, but again that's only my opinion. I would seriously recommend anyone that takes these pre workout supplements to try just caffeine alone as a pre-workout supplement, as if you get the same performance benefit it will work out much cheaper for you.

[Jakemilo]

Big Ears I think he means whos given out the info on what the boxer tested positive for ukad or the boxers team

[Big Ears]

Originally Posted by Jakemilo

Big Ears I think he means whos given out the info on what the boxer tested positive for ukad or the boxers team

I'd assume Whyte's team, however UKAD report what athletes are currently banned and what they've been banned for (although it can take up to 6 months for this).

So interestingly I've just found Ryan Barrett was banned for 15 months for taking Methylhexaneamin.....aka 1,3-dimethylamylamine (DMAA). His sanction ends in July of next year.

Ali Adams is banned for 2 years for anabolic steroids (stanozolol)
Enzo was banned till 2 weeks ago, for 6 months, for DMAA
Tony Dodson was banned till last July, for 5 months, DMAA
Larry O is banned for 4 years for taking absolutely everything available on this fucking earth, multiple anabolic steroids, EPO, HGH etc.

Terry Dunstan (Ephedrine) and Michael Banbula (Testosterone) are also currently banned. So while there is the chance that Whyte's team have put a cover story up for the time being (although I doubt it), the truth will be divulged in the not too distant future. The UKAD also publish the finer details of each case for you to read, and thus if anyone if wondering why Barrett got a much longer sentance than Enzo or Dodson it becomes obvious with reading the cases. Not than Barrett is actually any more guilty than the other two, just they presented much better cases.

[boxon]

Originally Posted by Big Ears

I'd assume Whyte's team, however UKAD report what athletes are currently banned and what they've been banned for (although it can take up to 6 months for this).

So interestingly I've just found Ryan Barrett was banned for 15 months for taking Methylhexaneamin.....aka 1,3-dimethylamylamine (DMAA). His sanction ends in July of next year.

Ali Adams is banned for 2 years for anabolic steroids (stanozolol)
Enzo was banned till 2 weeks ago, for 6 months, for DMAA
Tony Dodson was banned till last July, for 5 months, DMAA
Larry O is banned for 4 years for taking absolutely everything available on this fucking earth, multiple anabolic steroids, EPO, HGH etc.

Terry Dunstan (Ephedrine) and Michael Banbula (Testosterone) are also currently banned. So while there is the chance that Whyte's team have put a cover story up for the time being (although I doubt it), the truth will be divulged in the not too distant future. The UKAD also publish the finer details of each case for you to read, and thus if anyone if wondering why Barrett got a much longer sentance than Enzo or Dodson it becomes obvious with reading the cases. Not than Barrett is actually any more guilty than the other two, just they presented much better cases.

No- if you read the Ryan Barrett judgement its completly different to

Dodsons and Macrinellia. Ryans story kept changing and then he blamed

people for handing him "red bull mixed with some unknown powder"

Theres no cover up with Dillian Whyte the UKAD have already established

that the reading was caused by Jack3d.

Clearly a genuine mistake and i hope he is treated fairly.

[Big Ears]

Originally Posted by boxon

No- if you read the Ryan Barrett judgement its completly different to

Dodsons and Macrinellia. Ryans story kept changing and then he blamed

people for handing him "red bull mixed with some unknown powder"

Theres no cover up with Dillian Whyte the UKAD have already established

that the reading was caused by Jack3d.

Clearly a genuine mistake and i hope he is treated fairly.

I have, hence why I stated 'thus if anyone is wondering why Barrett got a much longer sentance than Enzo or Dodson it becomes obvious with reading the cases'. I don't know which of them (if any) knowingly used an illegal stimulant, but I do know Dodson and Enzo presented very good cases compared with Barrett. But then again you'd expect higher profile fighters, with more money and better teams around them to do just that.
Not that it would of been hard for Barrett to present a much better case than he did, and their shambolic efforts to argue reasons for the positive test undoubtedly led to his much lengthier suspension.

Had he presented a similar story to Enzo or Dodson (which would mean he would assumedly be lying*), he would probably have also got 5-6 months. The difference between them is not necessarily what happened, just what was presented as having happened.

Whyte will likely get 6 months, which I feel in itself is somewhat harsh. He took a banned stimulant during training (not a fight), unknowingly (I believe), and I feel fining him the value of his purse for his last fight would be sufficient. Although on top of this should be a 2 year suspended ban which would be applied if he tests positive for anything in the future (+ the length of ban for whatever he hypothetically takes), as there's now no reason at all for him not to be fully educated on exactly what he can and can't take and be particularly meticulous about this.



*Just to clarify I'm not saying Enzo or Dodson is lying, incase people thought that's what I meant by that statement.

[Claypole]

Originally Posted by Big Ears

as there's now no reason at all for him not to be fully educated on exactly what he can and can't take and be particularly meticulous .

There was no reason for him to not have been fully educated about this stuff before he took it. He knew certain substances are banned, or might be banned, and that certain products contain these substances. Considering the punishment he might face, he really should have been meticulous from the very beginning.

Claiming he doesn't understand what the words on the container mean is not a reasonable excuse for a professional sportsman.

[im sparticus]

Originally Posted by Big Ears

It's been reported by boxrec, The Sun and 'The Scene' among others, yes it's not exactly the BBC, but it seems likely that what has been reported is genuine and he's been banned for DMAA.

L-Arginine is a precursor to Nitric Oxide, and has been reported to endogenously increase the levels of Nitric Oxide in the body, which itself has been shown to improve performance will improve endurance. Now the effectiveness of L-Arginine actually increasing levels of Nitric Oxide in the body other than in those low in Arginine is highly debatable and therefore the likelyhood it will improve performance in the majority is imo quite low.

However Dietary Nitrate supplementation has shown to be an effective method of increasing levels of Nitric Oxide and improving endurance performance in both both acute and chronic doses (dosing periods ranging from 1 day to 15 days) and there is some evidence to suggest it may be able to increase strength levels when taken over a chronic period. As I mentioned before you can buy concentrated shots of beetroot juice to achieve this, although it is also possible through changes in the diet and consuming more leafy greens and other vegetables high in dietary nitrate such as beetroot.

Is JackEd suitable for boxers ?, well the original clearly isn't because it's banned. Is the new one ?, well that's up to the fighter if they feel they need a pre workout supplement. It certain seems to have benefits for usage during weight and resistance sessions so from that point of view you could make a case for it.
However Most of the ingredients in it I would deem to be pretty useless and I would suggest using caffeine powder instead as I stated before, but the power of placebo is very strong. Dr Ben Goldacre (author of a decent book called Bad Science) has commented on this many times and paraphrasing: It has been shown that when people take a painkiller like paracetamol/Ibuprofen, they report lower levels of pain when the pill has come from a shiny box than cost a few quid, rather than a cheap one which looks like it cost 20p, with the same actual dose involved. So maybe that big price tag and shiny packaging will help them lift more, gain a little more mass, get a little stronger and possibly improve their boxing performance as a result.



It's for both as far as I'm aware. Pre workout supplements are not designed to add mass directly. They are designed to increase strength and endurance and therefore athletes can train harder/longer and get gains from this. The Creatine, Beta-Alanine, Arginine and other compounds are in there to supposedly improve endurance, and you're right that these are not there for strength training purposes, they are there to increase the amount of reps/sets that may be performed in order to induce hypertrophy. Stimulants like caffeine and DMAA on the other hand are, they are included for the purpose of helping you to lift more, although also lift more for more reps.
So from that point of view the supplement could be used for bodybuilding or strength training.

I personally do not and have not taken any pre workout supplements, while I was training for Boxing, Gaelic Football, Rugby League/Union, bar on a handful of occasions (during weight sessions) out of curiosity to see their effect and if they were any use. I simply do/did not feel the need as I believe strong motivation can largely make up for the kick that you get from stimulants, and you don't have that risk of disturbing sleep. Not to mention these supplements are very expensive.

Of course my beliefs on many of these substances could prove to be incorrect. There is research out there to suggest Beta-Alanine, L-Arginine, L-Citrulline etc etc is succesful at improving performance, most of this is imo poor research, but again that's only my opinion. I would seriously recommend anyone that takes these pre workout supplements to try just caffeine alone as a pre-workout supplement, as if you get the same performance benefit it will work out much cheaper for you.

RE; press release. What im trying to get at is.
I would expect the substance that is found on the test to come under the rules of confidentiality. Im not saying doping agency arnt allowed to to tell board etc that hes failed but the reason (or to be exact,the substance) for failing is the part im suspicious about. But as youve said that ukad release the info on the particular substance within 6 months,i didnt know that. So i stand corrected.
Putting confidentiality to one side it just seems so convenient ,that all thats testing positive alately is for jacked. Its the least damaging reason at this time, and the one id use if i threw a positive but didnt have to tell the public the substance that got me caught.
Pre workouts can be great for boxers im not saying they arnt,what i meant is-as youve already stated l-arganine is a pre cursor to nitric oxide and what does that do- it gives you a pump, that imo is counterpoductive to what a boxer wants in training and id argue the same for a strength trainer.
Also all the other things youve written in your post are bang on and well presented.
IMO getting a pump in boxing training is undesirable. That was the crux of my point.
Also i agree taht a good dose of caffeine either on its own or with 2 or 3 of the other combos i.e guarana etc out there will serve a boxer well.

[mgmark7]

Originally Posted by Big Ears

Well 1,3-dimethylamylamine is what he's tested positive for anyway and that's the main ingredient (well was the main ingredient, not anymore) in Jack3D. It would actually be more difficult to source 1,3-dimethylamylamine on its own outside of a known supplement product.

Unless you feel we're being lied to and 1,3-dimethylamylamine is not the drug he's actually tested positive for. But then again if you're going that direction you're just getting into conspiracy theories.....



Assault I assume is muscle pharm assault ?, the main ingredient in that is caffeine. It also has Creatine, Beta Alanine, L-Arginine and Taurine (among many other ingredients) which there is some evidence for in terms of improving performance but a lot of the positive research for these products is studies which use multi-ingredient supplements to bring about improvement, not proving the effect of any of the individual compounds involved.

Creatine has a large % of non responders, ~30% of people don't respond to creatine supplementation at all and the substance is just excreted along with other waste products. for the other 2/3's of people it works to varying degrees. I'd suggest buying a small amount of creatine and trial it before anyway buys a reasonable quantity. You should see an increase in weight and possibly some difference in the way you look as creatine makes you retain more water. If this is not the cause it likely does not work for you.

Anyway the point I'm getting at is it may be worth looking at a caffeine only supplement, as this may be the only ingredient making much of a difference to your performance. Caffeine powder can be purchased cheap enough, but it's quite potent so be careful with the amount you use, and try not to exceed recommended dosages. Like most stimulants you will likely become more resistant over time to its effects.
As for side effects of short term use of assault ?, likely very little other than maybe disturbed sleep if taken at the wrong time or dosage(which of course can have some quite bad effects on you). Long term ?, unknown, I don't believe there's many studies on Creatine usage past 24 months and that'll be the case with quite a few of the substances used.

Most of the ingredients used in supplements like this really don't make much difference. If people want a stimulant, use caffeine, if you want something to improve endurance then increase the amount of dietary nitrate you consume (by quite a lot aswell), which basically means eating more greens, and fruit and veg in general........now who'd of thought that ????
Alternatively if you want an easy solution to gaining more dietary nitrate there are shots of concentrated beetroot juice which have become commercially available.

Outside of that unless you're naturally low in Creatine or L-Arginine I doubt you'll be getting any major performance improvements from any legal substances.

Good post. I would also point out that a lot of the studies into supplements are poorly constructed and usually biased towards the product being tested and are not usually peer reviewed. Where there have been well constructed tests the results have shown little or no effect other than a placebo effect or the effect of taking a large dose of a stimulant which may not be healthy for central nervous system when used long term.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[c woodhouse]

ive got to be honest im not sure where i am with this, the only thing i take is a maximuscle protein shake and eat healthy drink lots of water and go to bed early but if im honest i have no clue whats in my shake, ive never researched it as ive just assumed its ok, lazy by me i know but if i was to fail a test then come out with excuses nobody would believe me but it would be the truth, everybody is trying to get that edge in performance but im pretty old school, run, spar, hit the pads and the bag, then do your ground work, eat healthy get your rest, job done

[Geddy Lee]

Originally Posted by c woodhouse

ive got to be honest im not sure where i am with this, the only thing i take is a maximuscle protein shake and eat healthy drink lots of water and go to bed early but if im honest i have no clue whats in my shake, ive never researched it as ive just assumed its ok, lazy by me i know but if i was to fail a test then come out with excuses nobody would believe me but it would be the truth, everybody is trying to get that edge in performance but im pretty old school, run, spar, hit the pads and the bag, then do your ground work, eat healthy get your rest, job done

i am sure there are many sports people taking over the counter products that would lead to someone failing a test, products like this should have a warning on them saying what sports you can use them in, i feel a lot of the time it is not the fault of the sports person, and also dont think the small amounts of anything in them will give that much of an advantage, not like we are talking the stuff like lance Armstrong was on

[Anaboilc lion]

Whyte is in this months muscle&fitness talking about supplements and training !

[Claypole]

Originally Posted by Geddy Lee

i am sure there are many sports people taking over the counter products that would lead to someone failing a test, products like this should have a warning on them saying what sports you can use them in

It's not up to the supplement manufacturers to determine what sports their products are suitable for. The regulatory bodies of sports determine what substances are banned, and this can change over time. Relying on the label for what is essentially legal advice would not be a good idea.

If the label states what the product contains, then it's up to the consumer to check wheth it's ok to use in their sport. If a sportsperson consumes a banned product, then they are to blame, nobody else.

[Strike]

Honestly some of you need to actually read up on what certain substances are. Jack3d is so far from being a steroid it is hard to put into words. If he was going to cheat by taking PEDs then the last thing he would do is waste his fucking time and money, risking getting caught in order to take a glorified red bull.

Trust me, this is not a PED. It might now be banned as a stimulant, but combining aspirin and caffeine with ephedrine is banned too. We are not even in the same ball park as steroids, pro-hormones or things like EPO.

It is to give you a kick before going to the gym. Helps burn fat and give you energy for working out. He could have drunk 5 espresso's, taken 2 aspirins and a a can of red bull and been more buzzing. And it wouldn't get him banned.

I know we hear excuses but that is usually guys with genuine drugs in the system saying they didn't know. This is a fucking nothing.

[Strike]

Originally Posted by c woodhouse

ive got to be honest im not sure where i am with this, the only thing i take is a maximuscle protein shake and eat healthy drink lots of water and go to bed early but if im honest i have no clue whats in my shake, ive never researched it as ive just assumed its ok, lazy by me i know but if i was to fail a test then come out with excuses nobody would believe me but it would be the truth, everybody is trying to get that edge in performance but im pretty old school, run, spar, hit the pads and the bag, then do your ground work, eat healthy get your rest, job done

Maximuscle sell a pre workout drink called Viper that is not a dissimilar idea to Jack3D. It is not banned (as far as I am aware) but they have previously sold products that have later been banned from competition.

You'll be fine with their protein shakes, but like you said you trust it, because it's a big brand, it's not underground or dodgy, sponsors all sorts of athletes etc. But Jack3D is a big and popular supplement in the US.

I simply do not buy that if Whyte was trying to cheat he would risk it on something as innocuous as this product.