Is De La Hoya overated?

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Short memories, Oscar was called Chicken Delahoya from 97-99 when he/Arum avoided the Whitaker rematch and didn't unify. Then Oscar fights Oscar fights Quartey after his very serious case of Malaria and a Trinidad struggling to make weight. He gets a gift and a robbery decision imo. Everyone was calling for a Trinidad rematch, it never happened.

Oscar rebuilds, avoiding Forrest to fight a Mosley coming up in weight, loses, comes backs rebuilding his career, where he beats Vargas, a pretty good win. Still he avoids Winky Wright at 154 although eventually post Hopkins he did offer him a lowball sum for a fight. Instead he rematches Mosley who was 0-1-2 coming into the fight again going up in weight. He probably deserved to win that one

He fought allot of top names, but he did want the deck stacked in his favour, make no mistake, even at the end, Mayweather at 154 and Pacquaio moving up 2 divisions. Vernon Forrest asked laughing 'can I fight Marquez'

No he didn't lose all his big fights, he has some quality wins, he's a very very good fighter, but not better than Forrest or Quartey or Wright for my money, he just got more big fights (stacked in his favour) being the bigger draw, some he lost, some he won

Let's not pretend his career wasn't very cleverly stage managed or he took on all comers either as good as some of those names on his record are

Forrest and Quartey are as good welterweights, and Wright is a better 154 fighter, but don't forget that DLH probably is probably a more natural 140 pounder.

At 140 pounds, I think DLH is better than all the guys I mentioned above in their best divisions.

Oscar rarely cleared the confusion from his big fights by offering rematches, which was kind of disappointing, but he did face a lot of quality guys regardless, stage managed as his career was.

Personally I'd call him great.

Not top 50 great, but great nonetheless.

[TheSouthpaw]

I always thought DLH fought the best he could find, now at 154 that may have gotten him in some trouble, but he never ducked anyone...Cant say the same for Mayweather now can we?

[Aaron Contreras]

Originally Posted by TheSouthpaw

I always thought DLH fought the best he could find, now at 154 that may have gotten him in some trouble, but he never ducked anyone...Cant say the same for Mayweather now can we?

What we should remember is fighters who move up in weight (and maybe even lose) are defended to the death here at East Side (especially Greb, whether he deserves it or not).

I don't normally see the same for De La Hoya.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Aaron Contreras

What we should remember is fighters who move up in weight (and maybe even lose) are defended to the death here at East Side (especially Greb, whether he deserves it or not).

I don't normally see the same for De La Hoya.

But you've only been here since september apparently?

[Hands of Iron]

Greb didn't really 'move up' so much as he simply fought Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights at very distinct weight disadvantages hovering around 160-168.

Aaron has been pissy ever since he found a lot of the forum doesn't consider Willie Pep a Top 5 ATG.

[Aaron Contreras]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

But you've only been here since september apparently?

Okay, let me rephrase that -- since SEPTEMBER 2012, I have seen weight climbers (especially, Greb) defended to the death and haven't seen the same for De La Hoya.

I guess, the ESB landscape had a generational shift in August.

[LittleRed]

Stop calling my alts out Flea!

[Aaron Contreras]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Greb didn't really 'move up' so much as he simply fought Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights at very distinct weight disadvantages hovering around 160-168.

Aaron has been pissy ever since he found a lot of the forum doesn't consider Willie Pep a Top 5 ATG.

Are you serious? The Willie Pep, top-5 thread didn't explode on my defenses of Pep.

All we got to on there was that Pep did, in fact, fight some high level lightweights.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Gesta

Fought and beat Sweet Pea, Ike & Tito (first 2 were very close) , so what if he is not give them rematches he fought them at least, which cannot be said of all the others. Tito was asking for the magority share which was not going to fly , Tito was a WW what was Oscar to do?

Don't know the time line to not fight Forrest (was this around the time when he lost to Mayorga?), but I am sure he had his reasons , But he avenged he loss to SSM instead. Winky is not to be trusted with making carrer disisions, fought Hopkins instead around the same time.

Oscar is way better than Forrest, Winky & Ike.

Oscar pretty much took on all comers even if he tried to stack the odds in his favour (worst was cherry picking Pac), he was the money go to guy , you wanted to be the next star you had to fight Oscar. Floyd was the next star after that and was in a hot WW division and chose to retire intead of fighting the best WW of his time then ducked a former Flyweight that was cleaning the WW house.

Better than Floyd & Hopkins who had to leave his own division (where he is ranked as one of the best ever) becuase he could not beat Jermain Taylor, but is known as a ATG for beating Robert Allan & Echols for 25% of his MW defences

Right so you're giving Trinidad and Mosley 2 fights and saying he won Quartey and Whitaker? I think you're either a big fan or rate late round flurries highly regardless of them landing I certainly had him losing to Whitaker and Quartey as many others did. For the record a judge who had him beating Quartey had him losing to Trinidad.

Forrest was on his horizon from around '98 from my recollection, nothing wrong with it not happening then obviously with the bigger fights around, but Forrest was unbeaten until '03.

Oscar certainly isn't better than Forrest, Winky & Ike. Quartey outboxed him for about 9 rounds, Forrest did far better in 2 fights with Mosley as did Winky

Anyway I'd rank Mayweather and Hopkins above Delahoya by a margin, they're just allot better boxers for various reasons

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

Forrest and Quartey are as good welterweights, and Wright is a better 154 fighter, but don't forget that DLH probably is probably a more natural 140 pounder.

At 140 pounds, I think DLH is better than all the guys I mentioned above in their best divisions.

Oscar rarely cleared the confusion from his big fights by offering rematches, which was kind of disappointing, but he did face a lot of quality guys regardless, stage managed as his career was.

Personally I'd call him great.

Not top 50 great, but great nonetheless.

The first statement I'd go with but I think Oscar's best weight was 140 or 147, he weighed in '97 around 160lbs in the ring in some fights though so I think 147 was probably his most comfortable weight, which is why from the age of 24 onwards he fought there and was never the smaller man at that weight. His comp from 135-140 wasn't great, there were no great tests for him in those fights

As for top30, top50, I suppose you could make a case for about 200 boxers, it's all subjective

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Aaron Contreras

Are you serious? The Willie Pep, top-5 thread didn't explode on my defenses of Pep.

All we got to on there was that Pep did, in fact, fight some high level lightweights.

But we already knew that. You got sore over a sarcastic Ike Williams reference in response to something you said in a post and wouldn't let it go. You think I don't catch shit about Burley regarding Robinson on here? It's pretty light hearted stuff.

[SJS19]

MUCH more talented than given credit for these days.

One of the best pure talents that we've ever had.

[Aaron Contreras]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

But we already knew that. You got sore over a sarcastic Ike Williams reference in response to something you said in a post and wouldn't let it go. You think I don't catch shit about Burley regarding Robinson on here? It's pretty light hearted stuff.

First, let me make it clear, I went back to check that thread right now -- and only then, I know it was you who posted about Ike Williams.

I didn't catch the sarcasm the first time and after you told me you being sarcastic I immediately dropped the tension. (Not like I was cussing up a storm in the first place.) I asked you about Angott in a completely un-hotsile manner.

How did that conversation hold a grudge with you this long? We shared about 4 posts with each other they weren't even hot.

[Lester1583]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

The first statement I'd go with but I think Oscar's best weight was 140 or 147, he weighed in '97 around 160lbs in the ring in some fights though so I think 147 was probably his most comfortable weigh

The size difference in some of his early fights was ridiculous.

He never looked like a natural 140 pounder to me.

More like a natural welter fighting at lower weights.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Aaron Contreras

First, let me make it clear, I went back to check that thread right now -- and only then, I know it was you who posted about Ike Williams.

I didn't catch the sarcasm the first time and after you told me you being sarcastic I immediately dropped the tension. (Not like I was cussing up a storm in the first place.) I asked you about Angott in a completely un-hotsile manner.

How did that conversation hold a grudge with you this long? We shared about 4 posts with each other they weren't even hot.

Aaron,

There are maybe a few thousand people on the entire planet who care or even have the slightest clue about what's discussed on this forum. There are no grudges.