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Old 11-11-2012, 06:47 PM   #46
Stonehands89
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by young griffo View Post
Wlad does what he has to and has dominated everyone he's fought for the better part of a decade, for what that's worth.

The guy he just beat Mariusz Wach has to rank as one of the most inept fighters that I've seen challenge for a world title. He was big and brave but he was so slow, had a woeful punching technique and sub par skills. It's a win over an undefeated fighter for Wladimir but seriously someone like Louis or Tyson would've destroyed Wach in 1-3 rounds despite being so much smaller. He's a spud pure and simple and Wlad not going for the stoppage is why he's not wholey embraced by fight fans.

It's a pity because Wlad is what a champ should be. He's busy, always fit, happy to meet anyone (his brother excepted understandably) and isn't scared of rematches but beating rubbish like Wach or Peters etc will always give his detractors ammunition about ruling over a poor division, whether that's fair or not and his safety first mentality always gives the impression that he's wary of letting it all hangout for fear of another Sanders like disaster.
Great post.

Wlad and his brother are both real credits to the sport.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:58 PM   #47
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by young griffo View Post
Wlad does what he has to and has dominated everyone he's fought for the better part of a decade, for what that's worth.

The guy he just beat Mariusz Wach has to rank as one of the most inept fighters that I've seen challenge for a world title. He was big and brave but he was so slow, had a woeful punching technique and sub par skills. It's a win over an undefeated fighter for Wladimir but seriously someone like Louis or Tyson would've destroyed Wach in 1-3 rounds despite being so much smaller. He's a spud pure and simple and Wlad not going for the stoppage is why he's not wholey embraced by fight fans.

It's a pity because Wlad is what a champ should be. He's busy, always fit, happy to meet anyone (his brother excepted understandably) and isn't scared of rematches but beating rubbish like Wach or Peters etc will always give his detractors ammunition about ruling over a poor division, whether that's fair or not and his safety first mentality always gives the impression that he's wary of letting it all hangout for fear of another Sanders like disaster.
In the heavyweight division, size IS an asset and an obstacle for the opponent that has to face it. By definition, it is the one division with the greatest size disparity contained within. Wach is big, strong and has an anvil for a chin. That is a combination that goes far in heavyweight division in any era. Heavyweights are just different. It's almost a different sport.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:04 PM   #48
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Holmes was #1 and I'm pretty sure that John Tate was #2.

Larry Holmes vs. Top 10 rated opponents or champions.

1976
Feburary: debuts at No. 8 in Ring ratings (no exact date on ratings).
No rated opponents.

1977
No rated opponetns.

1978
Ernie Shavers - No. 7
Ken Norton - No. 2
Alfredo Evangelista - No. 6

1979
Ossie Ocasio - No. 5
Mike Weaver - No. 8
Ernie Shavers - No. 3 (Holmes rated as no. 1 in this fight, HW title Vacant).

1980
Lorenzo Zanon - No. 7
Leroy Jones - No. 6
Scott LeDoux - No. 10
***Holmes upgraded to HW champion by The Ring with April 1, 1980 ratings)***
Muhammad Ali - No. 5

1981
Trevor Berbick - No. 7
Leon Spinks - No. 3
Renaldo Snipes - no. 10

1982
Gerry Cooney - No. 3
Randall Cobb - No. 9

1983
Tim Witherspoon - No. 9
Marvis Frazier - No. 10

1984
James Smith - No. 9

1985
David Bey - No. 3
(Carl Williams - No. 12, rises to no. 9 after fight with Holmes)

Michael Spinks - World Champ Light-Heavyweight - LOSS

1986
Michael Spinks - World Champ - LOSS

1988
Mike Tyson - No. 1 - LOSS

1992
Ray Mercer - No. 5
Evander Holyfield - World Champ - LOSS

1995
Oliver McCall - No. 2 - LOSS


Record vs. Top 10/Champions: 20-5
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:14 PM   #49
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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You cannot redo what was never done in the first place. The WBS racketeers came into the sport and made an absolute mess of it, far worse than Carbo -who at least left the thrones alone.

Sorting through the mess is a giant job and you don't know if you like my "lineage" beciause it is as yet unpublished.

Robinson-Bell was 66 years ago. Why not go back 86? How would you propose filling vacant thrones then?
But it was done. Jones was considered by all and sundry a 4 weight titlist. In 3 of those weights he was the top dog.

Your results are unpublished, but it is the principle I refer to. It's idealistic but not currently representative with boxing imo.

We can go back many years to the days of the claimant system which mirrors today's climate. Boxing has had many periods of fracture, the days of the colour bar are another example. When boxing wasn't as fractured, we saw titles claimed by ways other than 1v2 the best example being Robinson. An insistance today not only ignores the current climate but it doesn't follow on from it's own history.

Lineage is perfect in a perfect world, but with multiple titles and poor judging we can't pretend boxing is black and white. We certainly can't pretend there is a vacant hw crown.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:22 PM   #50
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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it's how boxing is today.

we have 4 or 5 claimants per division and these are ranked by objective people.

If Robinson v Bell is good enough,I see nor fair basis to demand 1 v 2 as the only relevant way to fill what you call a vacant crown.

In short, I don't view your lineal title above any of the others. I believe the man makes the belt, now more so than ever before. I would love their to be just one belt with prestige that everyone fought for, but that doesn't mean we can rewrite history.
Why wouldn't it be? Robinson was the man in the division the moment he beat Fritzie Zivic, who was rated No. 1 -- That was in 1941. He didn't get a shot at the title until basically 1947, and had already beaten both the man who vacated it and even the one he was fighting for it.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:32 PM   #51
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

By December 1946, they should've just handed Robinson the title. In real exquisite gift wrapping, with a fruit basket and long letter of apology for the disservice.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:44 PM   #52
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

Hands how do rate the brothers?
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:11 PM   #53
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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But it was done. Jones was considered by all and sundry a 4 weight titlist. In 3 of those weights he was the top dog.
Note your word "titlist." That is telling.

Note your word "top dog"; ie: premiere fighter. That too is telling.

Jones was a four-division titlist, but your titlist is my contender.

He never, ever, beat the true champion.


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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Your results are unpublished, but it is the principle I refer to. It's idealistic but not currently representative with boxing imo.

We can go back many years to the days of the claimant system which mirrors today's climate. Boxing has had many periods of fracture, the days of the colour bar are another example. When boxing wasn't as fractured, we saw titles claimed by ways other than 1v2 the best example being Robinson. An insistance today not only ignores the current climate but it doesn't follow on from it's own history.

Lineage is perfect in a perfect world, but with multiple titles and poor judging we can't pretend boxing is black and white. We certainly can't pretend there is a vacant hw crown.
Good argument, but you had to overlook forty years to make it. Before the Walker Law boxing was a fractured mess with claimants springing up out from under the ring. Then it got pretty organized, despite sporadic conflict between the NYSAC and the NBA. It progressed.

After 1963 it got progressively worse and has since returned to the mess of the 1910s. You accept it. I don't. I believe that we can apply an objective standard to find the true champions in every division in every era -and I have. Some of the results are hurtful to be sure -some hurt me- but the price we all paid because of the ABC boys becomes very clear. They've ruined the sport and every time a writer or commentator mentions their tin-belts as if they meant something, they become complicit. It's a hard line, but nothing short of that is every going to change a damn thing.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:19 PM   #54
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Hands how do rate the brothers?
If "contribution to the sport of boxing" was a rational criterion to rate them, I'd rate them both very high there. But it isn't.

I would, however, rate them quite high in terms of Dominance though would have to dock points because of the plain fact that neither has in fact been quite as dominant as they appear to be. They're avoiding their most dangerous rival -the only rival who could have truly posed a threat over the past several years. Excuses aside, that is a problem.

The often-times laughable quality of their competition hurts their legacies most of all. I happen to think both of them would be pretty beatable in other eras -the 70s and the 90s particularly.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:22 PM   #55
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Hands how do rate the brothers?
I don't think we rate Vitali. Can probably count on one hand the number of live contenders he's actually beaten. With Wlad, it depends on your criteria I guess. A fighter - and particularly a Heavyweight - only has what's in front of him in his own time to conquer, which is naturally why people tend to place more emphasis on title reigns, dominance and such in regards to them. With that said, not all era's are created equal and the quality of the opposition (their ability, skills, worth, accomplishment, level at the time) has to be judged. That's open to (wide) interpretation. It'll have people saying things like Roy Jones win over Malinga trumps Robinson's over Fullmer.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:24 PM   #56
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

--by the way, for those interested, I'll have an essay covering this question in an essay on The Sweet Science very soon.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:29 PM   #57
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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--by the way, for those interested, I'll have an essay covering this question in an essay on The Sweet Science very soon.
When is the Gods of War book coming out?

And where the hell have you been lately?
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:30 PM   #58
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

Having shared the ring, professionally and recreationally, with many of the greats of the 90's and with the K Bros, I happen to think they would have done just fine in the 90's.

The Lewis hump, I can't say I'd bet on them overcoming, but I can't say I see the others surviving. They are really very, very good. Masterful control of range, incredible physical strength, Vitali is awkward impossible to establish a rhythm against, Wlad is technically incredibly with concussive power, they have good speed of hand and foot(Wlad) for men their size, and above all, they have tremendous smart and ring IQ.

I was so impressed with these guys in my experience with them. They'll be underrated forever, and I think that is a shame. Nicest, hardest working, most detail-focused boxers I've seen in years. Also, badasses.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:35 PM   #59
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
--by the way, for those interested, I'll have an essay covering this question in an essay on The Sweet Science very soon.
Cool, thanks mate.

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Originally Posted by Hands of Iron View Post
I don't think we rate Vitali. Can probably count on one hand the number of live contenders he's actually beaten. With Wlad, it depends on your criteria I guess. A fighter - and particularly a Heavyweight - only has what's in front of him in his own time to conquer, which is naturally why people tend to place more emphasis on title reigns, dominance and such in regards to them. With that said, not all era's are created equal and the quality of the opposition (their ability, skills, worth, accomplishment, level at the time) has to be judged. That's open to (wide) interpretation. It'll have people saying things like Roy Jones win over Malinga trumps Robinson's over Fullmer.
True, I consider Wlad to be the man of this era though.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:48 PM   #60
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

To reastablish a true "lineage" once again we'd nearly have to have a division by division "Super 6" like was done at 168 (where there is no doubt that Andre Ward is the man there now).

For 17 or so divisions that is probably unlikely to ever happen with the vested interests of the big promoters blocking a lot of the fights that would need to be made and boxing as a whole needs to happen.

So as it stands we'll have to trawl through history books to find out who the lineal guy truly is. I mean who was lineal champ at 168 when Jones beat Toney? Buggered if I know and once all these super and junior divisions came into being on top of the alphabet titles the lineal title waters were further murkied to be almost inpenetrable to all but the most dedicated hard core fan.

As an example of the cheapening of the term "world title" I watched Tyson-Douglas back to back before Wlad-Wach and my wife (who doesn't like boxing) of course knew Tyson but also Douglas and Holyfield who was just sitting ringside, as heavyweight champs. She hadn't heard of either Wlad or Wach, yet Wladamir has been a titlist for longer than Tyson ever was.

This malaise that hangs over boxing won't go away until there is a complete overhaul of the rankings and a complete scrapping of, or unification of the WBC,WBA,IBF,WBO...etc etc. If it doesn't happen and we keep missing out on the Floyd-Pac fights then boxing will keep it's slow inevitable drift to minor league "niche" sport, if it isn't there already.
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