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Old 11-13-2012, 03:44 PM   #31
Lord Tywin
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

All you have to do is look at the numbers to realize what a bonehead idea it is:

Willie Pastrano made $58,000 fighting Peralta. The fight lost money. Patterson made nearly that much fighting complete non-entity Santo Amonti.

Harold Johnson recieved $37,000 to defend against Pastrano who recieved his largest purse to date at $21,500

In losing to Torres Pastrano got over $100,000 but only after Torres agreed to almost nothing just to get a title shot and because it was part a big promotional double main event with Emile Griffith.

The month before Patterson made $170,000 for a non-title fight with Chuvalo.

The numbers speak for themselves there just wasnt enough money in the light heavyweight division.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:03 PM   #32
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

Floyd Patterson would have brought 'bigger dollars' into the Light-Heavyweight Division.

That's the point here.

Willie Pastrano versus Floyd Patterson, would have done very well at the Gate and
TV Revenue.

Just because Pastrano vs. Peralta was a 'dud', that doesn't have anything to do
with Willie versus Floyd.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:05 PM   #33
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
Lets leave it at this: You think Liston was some sort of renaissance man possessed of both brains and brawn, who would have been another Don King, or Tex Rickard.
No, I don't think that. Never even suggested it.

Quote:
I, like most people at the time, think Liston was a thug with below average intelligence whose only outlet in life was every going to be beating people up.
Ok. The general public thought a scary-looking black ex-convict who hadn't been to school and didn't talk much and boxed for a living ... was a stupid brute, an animal, an inferior human being with low intelligence.

People who actually knew him thought otherwise.


Quote:

I will just close by saying its awfully naive to think that any bumpkin with a third grade education can waltz in off the street and do what these guys can do.
"these guys" ? There have been hundreds of boxing managers who have had success with one or two fighters. Dozens of them were simply ex-fighters, not one-in-a-million business brains. They coached the fighter and scouted, accepted or rejected opponents and haggled over purses, that's it, with some success. The talent of the fighter in question counted a lot toward the success.

It's naive to think that every successful managerial maneuver has to be carried out by some exceptional business genius or slick educated man.
Guys like Tommy Gallagher manage fighters. seriously.
Yank Durham was a philly gym guy, a war veteran, a former railroad worker, but was in charge of picking Frazier's opponents and steered him to the championship in very quick time.

Maybe Liston would have been a disaster as a manager. Maybe he could have done a decent job with one particular fighter.

Quote:

I would ask if you think it was poor managerial acumen that led Patterson to Liston? I would disagree. In reality at least part of the reason Patterson was acting on his own behalf was expressly because he wanted to fight Liston. He was a man of integrity and did the right thing when most wanted him to duck Liston even while admitting Liston was his outstanding challenger. In the process he also made more money than he would have against anyone else. What would you have him do differently? Abdicate and instead of getting over one million to fight Liston drop down and fight a light heavyweight championship for one tenth that? If thats the case no wonder you admire Liston's "intellect." Patterson made the right decision both morally and in a business sense.
You ignore the context of Liston's comment/offer.
After being battered twice inside 1 round by Sonny Liston, Patterson's career looked over, his reputation lay in tatters, the future looked bleak.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:22 PM   #34
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

Patterson-Pastrano would have been one intrigueing fight, I'm telling you.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

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Originally Posted by red cobra View Post
Patterson-Pastrano would have been one intrigueing fight, I'm telling you.

Floyd Patterson at Light-Heavyweight -

1964 - Rodolfo Diaz
1964 - Wayne Thorton
1964 - Willie Pastrano
1964 - Harold Johnson

1965 - Mauro Mina (in Lima, Peru)
1965 - Willie Pastrano (rematch)
1965 - Cassius Clay (Heavyweight Challenge)

1966 - Jose Torres
1966 - Dick Tiger
1966 - Eddie Cotton

1967 - Bob Foster
1967 - Jerry Quarry (Heavyweight bout)
1967 - Bob Foster (rematch)
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:34 PM   #36
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

Here's a Liston interview.

He doesn't come across as at all stupid.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6OJkxv1pyM[/ame]
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:27 PM   #37
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

And theres no guarentee that Patterson-Pastrano would have been a hit. Pastrano made his biggest purse fighting Torres who was a feared contender coming up from middleweight only because Torres gave up most of his purse for the shot and only because it was matched with an attractive co feature.

You guys argue that Patterson's career was in tatters and that he had nowhere else to go which completely ignores the fact that in reality he made more than he ever would have at light heavyweight during the remainder of his career, fought for the title twice more, fought in several more meaningful heavyweight bouts, and likely made more money post championship than Liston did post championship. Its funny to even concieve of the argument whereby Liston becomes Patterson's guru and reinvigorates his career.

Your answer to this question is "the disgraced former heavyweight champ runs from the marquee division thats to tough for him after having fled the arena in a disguise and then goes down 20 pounds to fight Willie Pastrano, because he didnt look cowardly enough" Had Patterson done that he would he would confirmed everything those in the press hostile to him had been saying. That he was a coward and quitter with no heart who ducked challenges and fought weaker competition.

Instead Patterson stayed in the heavyweight divisions and like I said before gained a measure of redemption, made a fortune, and retired a highly respected elder statesman of the heavyweight division. You wanna argue he made the wrong move, or that Liston would have handled him any better? Why are we having this discussion, its ludicrous.

Some interview posted on youtube which is heavily and obviously edited is not going to make me change my mind. Find the press conference when they announced the postponement of the rematch with Ali and he couldnt string two words together, that was televised. There was also the one where he tried to save face after quitting to Ali in the first fight by saying he injured his shoulder. Not a particularly flattering event either. There were plenty more.

You keep on throwing these names out of guys who are supposedly morons that were successful managers and yet they have actually managed fighters. Liston never once managed anyone and yet for some reason you think hes just going to step into the role and work wonders on Patterson? Why? I guess if you think Patterson was lightning in a bottle that a barnyard pig could have had success with him then I can see why you think Liston might as well. But, you say Pattersons career was in tatters, which would imply he would need someone with some special acumen to resurrect it. Then buy in to some hair brained idea of him dropping down to light heavyweight, taking less money, possibly weakening himself, and rolling the dice.

I think he did just fine with those tatters. Within a year he had won a convincing decision over a guy many claimed he had ducked. Six months later he won a fat purse, fight of the year, and a shot at the championship in a showcase fight with Chuvalo. By the end of the year he was challenging for the title again as number one contender. After that debacle his career was once again in "tatters" and yet he still managed to have some meaningful fights including a disputed decision loss for the championship which could have gone the other way and if it had would have made him the first three time heavyweight champion in history.

In reality for Ten years after his career was being written off and that genius Sonny Liston would have him drop down to fight at light heavyweight he had a remarkably successful career. Its hard to argue with that. At that point Patterson had little to prove. From 1963 his legacy was essentially set and the rest was gravvy. Rich gravvy because he made a lot of money and thats what fighters are in the business for, not just winning titles which wouldnt be a given at light heavyweight.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:47 PM   #38
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

I've always been weary of the Smaller Heavyweights dropping down in weight after being a HW for so long. They just aren't used to the speed and head movement/movement that the lighter weights have.

Perfect example is Chris Byrd. He thrived off making the bigger slower fighters miss him with his movement, drops down to Light Heavyweight and gets destroyed by a very quick fighter that he was not used to seeing. I strongly discourage small Hw's from going too far down in weight after being in the weight class for so long. Cruiser weight is fine.
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:56 PM   #39
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

Easy there Lord Tywin,,,

This was Sonny Liston's observation after the July 1963 Floyd Patterson bout, where
he stopped Floyd in 'One-Round' with mediocre punches in the rematch.

It was Sonny's suggestion.

Lets not forget, Floyd had to go to Sweden in 1964 to get decent money, and he
walked away from fighting Cleveland Williams in early-1964, which was a smart move.

Floyd versus - A) Willie Pastrano, B) Harold Johnson, C) Mauro Mina and D) Bob Foster would
have been great bouts.

This is 'No Knock' on a fantastic person in Floyd Patterson.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:05 PM   #40
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

"Had" to go to Sweden? This is boxing, you go where the money is. The money was in Europe, as Liston and Ali later found out as well. It certainly was not in the light heavyweight division.

Dick made $100,000 to fight Bob Foster but only after Foster gave up $21,000 of his own money for that purse.

Foster made $109,000 for Finnegan, which was a huge purse for him and he had to travel to get it which you seem to hold against fighters.

He made less than $50,000 for Kendall.

He made $125,000 for Ali, the biggest purse of his career to that point for a non title heavyweight fight.

To give a comparison he was offered $28,000 for a rematch with Mark Tessman, more than he made for the first fight.

Another of Fosters larger purses was the $70,000 he made for Mike Quarry.

He earned about $25,000 for Ray Anderson.

He earned $50,000 for his unification with Rondon.

He was paid $75,000 for his first fight with Fourie and $200,000 for Fourie, again having to travel to get it. This was the largest purse of Foster's career by far (which would be tied in his next fight against Ahumada) and of course this was after Patterson had retired.

Floyd Patterson made $110,000 to fight Eddie Machen in a 1964 non title bout when his career was "in tatters".

You can follow the money easily and see that during Patterson's career there was no incentive to go through the process of dropping weight and weakening yourself. The only way he would benefit was by picking up a title which wasnt worth a whole lot of money.

Foster would have loved to have been able to pack on enough weight to make him an effective heavyweight because he always made more money there. Its no secret why nearly every light heavyweight champion has tried to move up to heavyweight historically, it has a lot less to do with glory and lot more to do with a lot more money.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:12 PM   #41
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

Lord Tywin,,,,,

All excellent points,,,,

But Floyd was already a very wealthy man in 1963,,,,,,,,,,,he was 'loaded'.
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:23 PM   #42
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

So he should just shoot himself in the foot as far as earnings go? Its prizefighting not legacyfighting.

Besides, by 1963 Floyd was also already the youngest and the only two time heavyweight champion and an Olympic Gold Medalist.

The majority of fighters faced with the possibility of their career hitting a brick wall choose feathering their nest over worthless trinkets and platitudes every time.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:04 AM   #43
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

No,

But if he went down to Light-Heavyweight and won that Title, he would have
regained some of the lost respect from the public.

Lets not forget, after the second bout with Sonny Liston, he was regarded as a
failure by most, if not all of American Boxing Fans, and the sportswriters.

Most boxing pundits gave up on him, and suggested for him to leave the sport, as he
was disgracing his name and the Heavyweight Division.

Remember, this was the thought in July 1963.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:58 PM   #44
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyJ74 View Post
If Liston were fighting today, a lot of people would say that Liston, too, belongs in the light heavyweight division, and not in the heavyweight division rumbling with the 240+ pounds guys!
Different eras Anthony! Your obvious nut-hugging on the Klit boys, among others, is flawed. In the 50's and early 60's they wouldn't have been the beefcakes they are now and Sonny may well have been even more chiseled in the 21st century. I've seen the Klit's get that deer in the headlights look when they're hurt and all things being equal Sonny would have reached them and hurt them IMHO. My $0.02
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:19 PM   #45
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'I Will Manage Floyd Patterson as Light-Heavyweight'

I'm growing sick and tired of the "Patterson could have stayed at LH" BS! He was 182-83 against Archie. He had simply grown out of the LHW division and could not go back...EVER. Unless he hit the steam room every week losing all his natural bulk and power. He may have been a better fighter AFTER the Liston losses and how many fighters can you say that about in history after losing their title! As a 'Cruiserweight' he may have been the best but that wasn't created then. But then all the other weight classes that have been created every 3 or 4 pounds weren't around either. Boxing shot it's own self in the foot which is why the UFC crap is so popular now.
Different eras matter! Had Floyd been 10 years younger he would have been a top dog in the 70's.
His shortcomings as a heavy had more to do with his inner demons than the opponents placed in front of him.
I don't think we'll ever see another 190+ poundish fighter with more charisma and tools than Patterson. Once again...think ERAS!
Get off his back folks!
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