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Old 11-12-2012, 01:15 PM   #31
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Default Re: Old school training routines seem to be the simplest and most effective!

dempsey, it seems you have a real problem with strength and conditioning coaches which to be honest is making you look very small minded.

There are great boxing coaches out there that are also great with strength and conditioning work, nobody is denying that. What is being disputed is whether every boxing coach knows it all. Many don't. That's where a strength and conditioning coach can be introduced to one's training.

Why you keep throwing out these blanket statements about how all strength and conditioning coaches seem to think they're smarter than everyone else or they like to throw out buzz words to confuse people is utter bullshit. If they use terms that you don't understand than that's your own ignorance coming into play not them attempting to get one up on you.

In the end is a strength and conditioning coach a requirement? Maybe. Whether the boxing coach is old school or "new school" it comes down to the knowledge of the boxing coach in that particular area. Simple as that.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:46 PM   #32
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Default Re: Old school training routines seem to be the simplest and most effective!

I've never seen a boxing coach teach the squat properly. In 20 years in gyms... Boxing coaches know jack in general
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:47 PM   #33
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Many exceptions of course
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:58 PM   #34
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dempsey, it seems you have a real problem with strength and conditioning coaches which to be honest is making you look very small minded.

There are great boxing coaches out there that are also great with strength and conditioning work, nobody is denying that. What is being disputed is whether every boxing coach knows it all. Many don't. That's where a strength and conditioning coach can be introduced to one's training.

Why you keep throwing out these blanket statements about how all strength and conditioning coaches seem to think they're smarter than everyone else or they like to throw out buzz words to confuse people is utter bullshit. If they use terms that you don't understand than that's your own ignorance coming into play not them attempting to get one up on you.

In the end is a strength and conditioning coach a requirement? Maybe. Whether the boxing coach is old school or "new school" it comes down to the knowledge of the boxing coach in that particular area. Simple as that.
I agree, especially with this "In the end is a strength and conditioning coach a requirement?"

Here is my point, S&C guys can be an asset to any team but are they as you put it "a requirement?"

Boxing trainers while not as educated or up to date, as the new S&C guys, still have done a fantastic job for over 200 yrs, developing many ATG's, and HOF'rs, and have fine tuned their training over the yrs. to what now is called old school.
S&C is but one component of a training program. S&C guys now demand as much time or more than a boxing trainer. Julio Cesar Chavez sr did alright without a six pack I am not against S&C guys but it has been my experience that they dump on anything old school, they also are pushy, they get to thinking that they can do a better job coaching the fighter then their trainer. A great example is Alex Ariza, he is in the news as much as Freddie.
Shape and conditioning alone dont win fights it helps if you are in condition. Even an ill conditioned fighter can win a fight, but can a well conditioned fighter with no skills win a fight against a sub novice guy, maybe.
Here is another point, who and how is the S&C guy going to get paid? Trainers work with a fighter for yrs to earn 10%, now comes an S&C guy and he wants to get paid 2-3% or they want a salary. Not everyone can afford this added expense.
I am lucky my guys have one if they need one.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:28 PM   #35
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I agree, especially with this "In the end is a strength and conditioning coach a requirement?"

Here is my point, S&C guys can be an asset to any team but are they as you put it "a requirement?"

Boxing trainers while not as educated or up to date, as the new S&C guys, still have done a fantastic job for over 200 yrs, developing many ATG's, and HOF'rs, and have fine tuned their training over the yrs. to what now is called old school.
S&C is but one component of a training program. S&C guys now demand as much time or more than a boxing trainer. Julio Cesar Chavez sr did alright without a six pack I am not against S&C guys but it has been my experience that they dump on anything old school, they also are pushy, they get to thinking that they can do a better job coaching the fighter then their trainer. A great example is Alex Ariza, he is in the news as much as Freddie.
Shape and conditioning alone dont win fights it helps if you are in condition. Even an ill conditioned fighter can win a fight, but can a well conditioned fighter with no skills win a fight against a sub novice guy, maybe.
Here is another point, who and how is the S&C guy going to get paid? Trainers work with a fighter for yrs to earn 10%, now comes an S&C guy and he wants to get paid 2-3% or they want a salary. Not everyone can afford this added expense.
I am lucky my guys have one if they need one.
In this post it seems you're agreeing with me and disagreeing at the same time.

You've thrown out a few more blanket statements. "S&C guys now demand as much time or more than a boxing trainer." Maybe some do, but does that mean they're all shit and not required or what? "It has been my experience that they dump on anything old school, they also are pushy, they get to thinking that they can do a better job coaching the fighter then their trainer" Strength and conditioning wise they can, hence the reason they're employed in that area.

You say you're not against S&C coaches, yet every post you make portrays somebody that is very much against them and sees them all as money hungry know it all's that 99% of the time are entirely pointless and unneeded.

Not everyone can afford a strength and conditioning coach... so what? Same as a nutritionist, if your club/coach/yourself can afford one a S&C coach can be a very valuable asset to yourself or trainees.

BTW, I've never said a S&C coach is a requirement, I said one may be if a boxing coach's S&C knowledge is limited.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:32 PM   #36
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Default Re: Old school training routines seem to be the simplest and most effective!

virus got destroyed
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:14 PM   #37
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virus got destroyed
Of course I did.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:10 PM   #38
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virus got destroyed
Dont think so, everyone has a point of view, but its somewhere in the Middle, with most things. Communicate and everyone gets, or should improve knowledge. As someone once said, the Man on top of the Mountain see,s everything, but His knowledge is brief. Theres no one to communicate with. What a great Book that was.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:47 PM   #39
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Default Re: Old school training routines seem to be the simplest and most effective!

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virus got destroyed
Maybe in your lala land. Virus made some great great points while dempsey says "s&c coach are good and bad at the same time".
I really dont get you point at all dempsey.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:47 PM   #40
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Dont think so, everyone has a point of view, but its somewhere in the Middle, with most things. Communicate and everyone gets, or should improve knowledge. As someone once said, the Man on top of the Mountain see,s everything, but His knowledge is brief. Theres no one to communicate with. What a great Book that was.
I'm just ****in with Virus. He gets pissed off real easily.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:43 AM   #41
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Default Re: Old school training routines seem to be the simplest and most effective!

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Maybe in your lala land. Virus made some great great points while dempsey says "s&c coach are good and bad at the same time".
I really dont get you point at all dempsey.
'er "sarcasem alert", there is some good and bad in everything in life. As I said S&C guys come up with mumble jumbo as was fully illustrated by a post talking about:
"The advances made in understanding about the properties of tendons, the neuromuscular system, how the body adapts and how gene expression is altered through different types of training has exploded in recent times. And when you understand something you can manipulate it."
That is fine that you understand the human body, this poster went and threw all those terms and all he really had to say is"when you understand something you can manipulate it.". Why is a person ignorant if they dont fully understand what is being said. This poster seems to forget that a boxer has a team, and each is supposed to know what their jobs are. I dont have to know what a cutman does and neither do I want to know. Yes, yes I am a sorry manager cos I dont know everything.
There in that post is what most S&C guys that I have spoken too throw at you, and then they say what you been doing is all wrong. I am open minded enough to listen to them rattle off their credentials and show me how ignorant I am cos I question what they do. FYI, a form of S&C guys was used in the 50's and 60's, elite Mexican fighters like Salvador Sanchez, Chavez sr, always had a private doctor, in camp with them, and when you talk old school, these coaches were as old school as they can get, but they knew enough to bring in a sports medicine doctor to camp. LIKE I SAID BEFORE JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ DIDNT HAVE A SIX PACK AND DIDNT NEED ONE. S&C guys need to shut up and do their jobs.
and because I dont use these terms is cos I dont have to know them, (I know I am ignorant)and last but not leastme in lala land.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:57 AM   #42
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Salvador Sanchez, conditioned himself the old school Mexican way at altitude and good old fashioned hard work, sparring, callistetics and sparring. He was always running the hills and mountains where he lived. He had a Dr Valenzuela who worked with him and on his stamina. Dr Valenzuela was an early S&C coach. Sanchez had savy old school guys who were open to new ideas and would bring in private doctors to camp to ck the fighters heart rate something they do now.
The best Mexican trainers, real old school, Cuyo Hernandez, Lupe Sanchez, Nacho Beristain, Pancho Rosales, Cristobal Rosas, Romulo Quiarte, all used private doctors, sports medicine guys. If I am not mistaken even before the '60's, there was a doctor ready to ck the heartrate of the fighters, these old school guys were open minded.
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:08 AM   #43
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Default Re: Old school training routines seem to be the simplest and most effective!

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'er "sarcasem alert", there is some good and bad in everything in life. As I said S&C guys come up with mumble jumbo as was fully illustrated by a post talking about:
"The advances made in understanding about the properties of tendons, the neuromuscular system, how the body adapts and how gene expression is altered through different types of training has exploded in recent times. And when you understand something you can manipulate it."
That is fine that you understand the human body, this poster went and threw all those terms and all he really had to say is"when you understand something you can manipulate it.". Why is a person ignorant if they dont fully understand what is being said. This poster seems to forget that a boxer has a team, and each is supposed to know what their jobs are. I dont have to know what a cutman does and neither do I want to know. Yes, yes I am a sorry manager cos I dont know everything.
There in that post is what most S&C guys that I have spoken too throw at you, and then they say what you been doing is all wrong. I am open minded enough to listen to them rattle off their credentials and show me how ignorant I am cos I question what they do. FYI, a form of S&C guys was used in the 50's and 60's, elite Mexican fighters like Salvador Sanchez, Chavez sr, always had a private doctor, in camp with them, and when you talk old school, these coaches were as old school as they can get, but they knew enough to bring in a sports medicine doctor to camp. LIKE I SAID BEFORE JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ DIDNT HAVE A SIX PACK AND DIDNT NEED ONE. S&C guys need to shut up and do their jobs.
and because I dont use these terms is cos I dont have to know them, (I know I am ignorant)and last but not leastme in lala land.
You are not open mided at all.Sounds to me like youre on a witch hunt.
You open up a thread how s&c are ok but then goes and blast them and mock everything you dont understand like mumbo jumbo,chavez didnt have this and that,s&c coach must be a boxer bla bla bla.Got a lot of hate for s&c coaches.I really cant grasp why.
Btw Nonito Donaire didnt run 1 km in his preparation for his last bout.What was the result?He is working with conte form 2010 same as Berto and guees who sought his advice as well?ANDRE WARD(prior to his fight witk Kesller he had 11 trainings with conte).
The same ward that has hunter as his trainer,dont get me wrong i like hunter as a trainer and i think that he is a phenomenal boxing coach,but when he talks about "imbalances" of the body of Amir khan i laugh like hell cause im sure he doesnt know what the hell he is talking about.
this article made me cringe:
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Cotto has been working with Phil Landman from 2007 and now has a boxing trainer who is phenomenal and who understand both worlds,which is very rare,Pac has working with Ariza from i dunno when.Just a few examples as well.

Last edited by pecho26; 11-14-2012 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:16 AM   #44
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Default Re: Old school training routines seem to be the simplest and most effective!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dempsey1234 View Post
'er "sarcasem alert", there is some good and bad in everything in life. As I said S&C guys come up with mumble jumbo as was fully illustrated by a post talking about:
"The advances made in understanding about the properties of tendons, the neuromuscular system, how the body adapts and how gene expression is altered through different types of training has exploded in recent times. And when you understand something you can manipulate it."
That is fine that you understand the human body, this poster went and threw all those terms and all he really had to say is"when you understand something you can manipulate it.". Why is a person ignorant if they dont fully understand what is being said. This poster seems to forget that a boxer has a team, and each is supposed to know what their jobs are. I dont have to know what a cutman does and neither do I want to know. Yes, yes I am a sorry manager cos I dont know everything.
There in that post is what most S&C guys that I have spoken too throw at you, and then they say what you been doing is all wrong. I am open minded enough to listen to them rattle off their credentials and show me how ignorant I am cos I question what they do. FYI, a form of S&C guys was used in the 50's and 60's, elite Mexican fighters like Salvador Sanchez, Chavez sr, always had a private doctor, in camp with them, and when you talk old school, these coaches were as old school as they can get, but they knew enough to bring in a sports medicine doctor to camp. LIKE I SAID BEFORE JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ DIDNT HAVE A SIX PACK AND DIDNT NEED ONE. S&C guys need to shut up and do their jobs.
and because I dont use these terms is cos I dont have to know them, (I know I am ignorant)and last but not leastme in lala land.
I mentioned all those things because they are all factors to take into account. I'm not trying to make you feel inadequate about your knowledge, your knowledge IS inadequate. You make no sense from one sentence to the next, you've been punched in the head a few times yourself haven't you? A strength and conditioning coach has absolutely nothing to do with a fighter looking the part or having a six pack, it's about getting their athletes body ready for whatever sport it is they're competing in. There's a boxing coach for boxing and a s+c guy for conditioning. The s+c coach isn't going to be able to do a thing for the fighter when it comes to boxing skill and the boxing coach isn't going to be able to do much in regards to getting the fighter into peak physical condition. Since it's the sport of boxing then obviously the boxing coach is going to have a far bigger influence on the outcome of a fight, if his guy isn't as fit or as strong as he could be his skills might still be more than enough to win comfortably. Simply being fit is never going to win a fight if you can't fight. For you to claim that the boxing coach is going to come up with a better conditioning routine than somebody who specialises in that is just plain idiotic. Which makes you a ****ing idiot, you're not open minded at all.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:22 AM   #45
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Default Re: Old school training routines seem to be the simplest and most effective!

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You are not open mided at all.Sounds to me like youre on a witch hunt.
You open up a thread how s&c are ok but then goes and blast them and mock everything you dont understand like mumbo jumbo,chavez didnt have this and that,s&c coach must be a boxer bla bla bla.Got a lot of hate for s&c coaches.I really cant grasp why.
Btw Nonito Donaire didnt run 1 km in his preparation for his last bout.What was the result?He is working with conte form 2010 same as Berto and guees who sought his advice as well?ANDRE WARD(prior to his fight witk Kesller he had 11 trainings with conte).
The same ward that has hunter as his trainer,dont get me wrong i like hunter as a trainer and i think that he is a phenomenal boxing coach,but when he talks about "imbalances" of the body of Amir khan i laugh like hell cause im sure he doesnt know what the hell he is talking about.
this article made me cringe:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Cotto has been working with Phil Landman from 2007 and now has a boxing trainer who is phenomenal and who understand both worlds,which is very rare,Pac has working with Ariza from i dunno when.Just a few examples as well.
That Virgil Hunter interview is cringeworthy indeed. No shit losing muscle weight isn't good for a fighter, they're not ****ing voodoo doctors
It's also funny how he's talking about how strength trainers care about the external appearance and not what matters, then he goes on to talk about how he was looking at Khan's back and his Trapezius muscles aren't developed enough Can't make that shit up.
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