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Old 11-14-2012, 09:45 PM   #106
thesandman
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

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Originally Posted by Montero View Post
I hear ya, but they are brothers - they're not going to fight each other. Also, Wlad has cleaned out the division and faced the much better opposition than his brother. You also gotta consider Vitali was on the sidelines for 4 years while Wlad established himself as the premiere HW.
I don't expect to them fight at all.
Wlad IMO has fought the better guys, but there are guys Vitali has fought that won't get a fight v Wlad, because they lost to Vitali.
If Vit's last name was Maskaev, there'd be an uproar that the 2 hadn't fought, and both guys would be titlists.
A bit like Pac v Mayweather really.



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Originally Posted by Montero View Post
You could say the same thing about Lewis and Riddick Bowe. There were also times when guys like Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, etc were highly rated and Lewis never faced them. Also, as I stated above - Wlad has clearly done MUCH more than Vitali and distanced himself from his older brother. Vitali is merely a titlist, Wlad is the champion.
Nah, when one guy walks away from a contracted fight as part of a 4 man heavyweight tournament - the tournament being the ONLY reason you got your title shot in the first place (Ruddock was actually first in line to face Holy) you lose all credibility in regards to dominance. Especially when your next fights are against Dokes and Ferguson.

I don't disagree too much. Again, we have to resort to comparisons for the brothers, not a real fight.


[quote=Montero;14202980]
Prime for prime Wlad beats Vitali by decision.
[quote]

Probably. Vitali suffers v both Lewis and Wlad because both of those guys are big enough to reach him with right hands when he uses his "lean away" defence (not many others are), and the fact he doesn't truly have enough to stop those guys (who can both be stopped) in his right hand.

He hurt Lewis early, but in the last 2 rounds in particular, Lewis made barely any attempt at defence, and basically stalked Vitaly with his hands at his waist.

Vitali could stop Wlad, in the manner Peter KD him several times. Just pressure leading to befuddlement. Lewis reacts far better to being pressured and being buzzed.

Good fight. Wlad would be favourite, but Vitali would be a very live underdog.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Montero View Post
I'll give you that one, the WBO was considered a minor title and still is by many. This is why I used words like "title defense" and/or "title belt" instead of "championship defense" - they are different things. However, Wlad's actualy championship reign (the new lineage he created when he beat Chagaev) has already been longer and more dominant than Lewis' (in terms of frequency of fights, rounds won, and stoppages).

All in all, very solid and reasonable arguments from you my friend. It's good to see some moderate, logical thinking people on this board - there are way too many extremists, haters and dick riders.
Yeah, it is semantics true.


It's very hard on this board to actually like both (or several) fighters. I like Lewis, but I think Wlad is excellent too. It's good to chat about this stuff with somebody that isn't a total nutjob to be honest.....

I thought Wlad was very good v Wach (a very overmatched Wach BTW - great chin, but very slow and had absolutely zero offence to trouble Wlad) - Wlad fought like he SHOULD have fought against the other overmatched guys like Iggy, Thomson, Chambers etc.

IMO, I still think Lewis fought and beat the better fighters. That's absolutely not Wlads fault. There's very few guys he hasn't fought, it's just really outside of the brothers - Haye isn't too bad but clearly is solely in it for the money - there's really not much.

Fighters are either really limited, or really fat, and just happy for the payday of a title shot.
Or:
Just aren't willing to take the step up. Happy to plug away at a lower level, taking the money, but not being "ready" for a title shot, even in their 30's (yes Mr Povetkin, I'm talking about you).


How else do you explain guys like Briggs, Rahman etc. STILL getting title shots?
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:26 PM   #107
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

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Originally Posted by irishny View Post
Funny that you should belittle Shannon Briggs as Vitali saw fit to give his corpse a title shot,more than 12 years after Lewis fought him.

Botha in his prime was a solid fighter,as was Frank Bruno. Id rate them ahead of nearly all the contenders in the current division.

Lewis has at least 3 HOF fighters on his resume.

It was just TKO 6, how about his win over Holyfield(arguably 2)?

Destroying quality fighters like Golota and Ruddock?


i'm talking about wlad . vitali picking shannon's corpse for a title fight has nothing to do with wlad . wlad and vitali are two different people

2 of those HOF were washed up . and i already conceded that lewis was head and shoulders above vitali in that fight , his best win , and the only fight that puts him above wlad .


golota and ruddock are quality fighters now ? are they better than chagaev , haye , byrd .. ?
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:31 PM   #108
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

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Originally Posted by paypayvay View Post
i'm talking about wlad . vitali picking shannon's corpse for a title fight has nothing to do with wlad . wlad and vitali are two different people

2 of those HOF were washed up . and i already conceded that lewis was head and shoulders above vitali in that fight , his best win , and the only fight that puts him above wlad .


golota and ruddock are quality fighters now ? are they better than chagaev , haye , byrd .. ?
Nope
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:33 PM   #109
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

and ruddock himself condeded that he had ' nothing left ' after the tyson fight .
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:33 PM   #110
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

Pre Tyson Ruddock would destroy Byrd, Gaye, and Chagaev

So would Golota

Ruddock would dislocate Wlad's jaw and give it a grotesque compound fracture if he ever hit him with a "smash" punch

A blown up middle weight is a world beater in bitchko land
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:44 PM   #111
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

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Originally Posted by KidDynamite View Post
Pre Tyson Ruddock would destroy Byrd, Gaye, and Chagaev

So would Golota

Ruddock would dislocate Wlad's jaw and give it a grotesque compound fracture if he ever hit him with a "smash" punch

A blown up middle weight is a world beater in bitchko land

lewis fought post-tyson ruddock , so that's a moot point . he also admitted that he had nothing left after those fights . so not only the HOf's on lennox's resume were washed up ,but the contenders too .
chris byrd, silver medalist , a 2 time world champion , and a heavyweight since 1995 , is a bum and not actually a heavyweight in Klitschko-hate lands

but golota , a guy who's only claim to fame is 2 DQ's against a zombie , is a world beater .
haye , unified cruiserweight champion ,and only the second man from that division to capture a piece of the HW belt , is a bum .
chagaev : amateur world champion at age 19 , beat felix savon 3 times,former world champion as a pro , is a bum .

nice ..
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:31 PM   #112
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

delete

Last edited by Hands of Iron; 11-14-2012 at 11:51 PM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 11:52 PM   #113
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

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Originally Posted by paypayvay View Post
and ruddock himself condeded that he had ' nothing left ' after the tyson fight .
He didn't.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUAG1bjht40&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUAG1bjht40&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwnZ3VkXYCE&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwnZ3VkXYCE&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcVJVvDTJeo&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcVJVvDTJeo&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]


LAS VEGAS - Donovan "Razor" Ruddock had nothing to say yesterday morning about his latest loss to Mike Tyson. That's because his broken jaw was wired shut, and will remain so for six weeks.

Ruddock sustained not only his second straight defeat to Tyson at the Mirage, but a physical beating one normally absorbs in a back alley.


By the time Ruddock heard the news that he had lost a unanimous 12-round decision, his lower lip was leaking blood and his left cheek was so swollen he bore a disturbing resemblance to the tobacco-filled jaw of old Chicago White Sox second baseman Nellie Fox. None of those conditions improved after Ruddock heard judges Dalby Shirley and Art Lurie had scored the foul-marred bout 114-108 for Tyson, while Chuck Giampa had it 113-109.

Of course, had Tyson not had three points deducted for low blows (to one for Ruddock) by referee Mills Lane, the scorecards would have been as lopsided as the side of Ruddock's face.

"Donovan `Razor' Ruddock is not a sore loser," said Ruddock's promoter, Murad Muhammad, as he tried to explain his fighter's absence from yesterday's press debriefing. "He is, in fact, sore.

"He went without my knowledge to the hospital. They found out a little part of his jaw is broken. Right now, Donovan `Razor' Ruddock is in the hospital.

"His jaw is being set. His eye is puffed. Of course, his hands hurt a little bit. But he never complains about his body. He just can't understand, with the punching power he has, how Mike Tyson took those shots. We salute Mike Tyson today as the best heavyweight in the world."

After he lost 14 of the 19 rounds he has fought with Tyson, that would seem to be a minimum concession on Ruddock's part. Although Tyson's critics continued to maintain - after he had battered Ruddock's rib cage and snapped his mandible in the course of knocking him down twice - that the former champion at 25 is no longer the fearsome fighter he was at 21, he seemed to have been more than enough for Ruddock.

To be honest, that would seem to be true for anyone else in the heavyweight division at the moment, at least in Tyson's opinion.

"In all reality, I'm the champion," Tyson said. "The belts are just a symbol. I've said I want to fight heavyweight champion Evander Holyfield many times. I was entitled to his first defense but I didn't get it. He knows he can't beat me. I know he can't beat me."

Certainly, it is now clear Ruddock can't beat him. Ruddock spent most of the evening hurling wild punches at Tyson that hurt the former champion on several occasions but failed to wobble him.

Meanwhile, Tyson dropped Ruddock in the second and fourth rounds with straight right hands to the jaw that came as counters to Ruddock's powerful left hooks.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:29 AM   #114
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

Ruddock had more in the tank post Tyson than Chag had post hepatitis.
Ike had already smeared Byrd on the canvas.
Iggy? Just watch him.


And didn't super great Byrd need a highly dodgy decision to get past an old, past it Golota?
Or was it a draw? I forget.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:33 AM   #115
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

This thread on the whole had made my brain hurt.

However, reading Haye is only the second ever Cruiserweight to win a piece of the HW belt was informative and surprising.

I haven't checked if its true or not, but if so its surprised me.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:30 AM   #116
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

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Originally Posted by thesandman View Post
Ruddock had more in the tank post Tyson than Chag had post hepatitis.
Ike had already smeared Byrd on the canvas.
Iggy? Just watch him.


And didn't super great Byrd need a highly dodgy decision to get past an old, past it Golota?
Or was it a draw? I forget.
it was a draw

Golota had already suffered a terrible beating from Tyson and sustained serious injuries before he fought Byrd

Super great Byrd was a good slick fighter but not a real heavyweight, neither is Haye who never even fought healthy against Wlad and still was able to make him miss and keep Wad wary of his right hand.

Lewis having wins over Holyfield, Tua, Grant, Mercer, Morrison, and Tucker ecliplses anything that Waldo has done
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:32 AM   #117
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

OP should commit suicide.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:33 AM   #118
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

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Originally Posted by KidDynamite View Post
it was a draw

Golota had already suffered a terrible beating from Tyson and sustained serious injuries before he fought Byrd

Super great Byrd was a good slick fighter but not a real heavyweight, neither is Haye who never even fought healthy against Wlad and still was able to make him miss and keep Wad wary of his right hand.
Haye was cutting to make the 200lb limit. He is a genuine heavyweight, and a negative stylist. His power is overrated, he's a sloppy finisher, has poor balance and is nowhere near as slick as he thinks.

Decent though.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:46 AM   #119
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

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Originally Posted by Hands of Iron View Post
He didn't.

.[/i]
he did , in an interview after he retired .

are you seriously expecting a fighter to say after a fight " you know what , i'm done , this loss ruined me as a fighter "

"Since he Retired in 2001 when asked about his Boxing career he stated his fights with Tyson took everything out of him and believed they also finished Tyson insisting both he and Tyson were never the same after those fights."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
OP should commit suicide.

some lennox fans should consider that option too

golota and ruddock ? bloody good wins !!

chagaev ? byrd ? haye ? BUMS
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:03 AM   #120
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Default Re: lennox's resume is hardly better than wlad's

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Originally Posted by paypayvay View Post
he did , in an interview after he retired .

are you seriously expecting a fighter to say after a fight " you know what , i'm done , this loss ruined me as a fighter "

"Since he Retired in 2001 when asked about his Boxing career he stated his fights with Tyson took everything out of him and believed they also finished Tyson insisting both he and Tyson were never the same after those fights."





some lennox fans should consider that option too

golota and ruddock ? bloody good wins !!

chagaev ? byrd ? haye ? BUMS
Was actually agreeing with Ruddock. "He didn't"... (have much left).
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