What fights can I see the best version of Ali/Clay there ever was?

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

This can only be applicable for the post Manilla phase of Muhammad's career,imo. Prior to that,he had n't really taken that much punishment. With the exception of the Frazier fights and Norton bouts (I & II in this case)

Ok, so you're saying prior to Manila, Ali hadn't taken much punishment apart from the 27 rounds with Frazier and the 24 with Norton ?
That's a lot of punishment right there.
I'd also point to the 15 rounds with Oscar Bonavena, where he absorbed a fair bit of punishment, and the 8 rounds with Foreman.
That adds up to 74 tough rounds against big highly-ranked opponents.
And even guys like Jurgen Blin were getting to him.

From 1970 onwards he was using a style that incorporated absorbing 'too much' punishment.

Post-Manila he wasn't really even doing enough to win fights.

[Senor Pepe']

The Cassius Clay that stepped into the ring against Sonny Liston in
Lewiston, Maine may have been the 'best' Cassius Clay.

Age 23+, and perfectly conditioned.

Of course, Sonny 'took a dive', but that Tuesday Night in Lewiston,
Cassius may have been at the 'pinnacle' of his capabilities.

Unfortunately, we only got to see a little over 1-minute of him.

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

So you consider two months a long lay off between fights ?

Your love of Ali has clearly made you susceptible to sarcasm

[BillB]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

The Cassius Clay that stepped into the ring against Sonny Liston in
Lewiston, Maine may have been the 'best' Cassius Clay.

Age 23+, and perfectly conditioned.

Of course, Sonny 'took a dive', but that Tuesday Night in Lewiston,
Cassius may have been at the 'pinnacle' of his capabilities.

Unfortunately, we only got to see a little over 1-minute of him.

I wonder if Clay was "perfectly conditioned" for that fight.

It's a known fact he didn't like to train.

Would he have gotten in perfect shape knowing the fight would only last a couple of minutes?

[dyna]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Ali was so busted up he took two whole months to fight again.

Getting your kidneys bloody doesn't hurt you in a 2 month period, he was a night in the hospital while Chuvalo was dancing with his wife.
But it probably did help with Ali declining faster.

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Ok, so you're saying prior to Manila, Ali hadn't taken much punishment apart from the 27 rounds with Frazier and the 24 with Norton ?
That's a lot of punishment right there.
I'd also point to the 15 rounds with Oscar Bonavena, where he absorbed a fair bit of punishment, and the 8 rounds with Foreman.
That adds up to 74 tough rounds against big highly-ranked opponents.
And even guys like Jurgen Blin were getting to him.

From 1970 onwards he was using a style that incorporated absorbing 'too much' punishment.

Post-Manila he wasn't really even doing enough to win fights.

Between 1970-75,Ali may have not evaded quite as many punches as he'd done pre-exile,but he was still avoiding more than most. While not being QUITE as fast,he was still very fast for a heavyweight. The blows he took from the likes of Jurgen Blin were n't very much or hard.

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by Webbiano

Your love of Ali has clearly made you susceptible to sarcasm

Maybe you're right


I usually catch people out with sarcasm,myself. Must be slipping !

[red cobra]

Watch his fight with Rudi Lubbers...scintillating, just scintillating

[BillB]

Doug Jones
Norton III
Jimmy Young
Shavers

Ali at his best- with help from his friends.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by Stevie G

Between 1970-75,Ali may have not evaded quite as many punches as he'd done pre-exile,but he was still avoiding more than most. While not being QUITE as fast,he was still very fast for a heavyweight. The blows he took from the likes of Jurgen Blin were n't very much or hard.

But I don't think we should under-estimate how much punishment Ali absorbed before Manila. He took enough punishment in 1970-'74 to end a career, due to his style change/slowing down. I daresay he accrued damage evenin the first Frazier fight and surely the Foreman fight that contributed to his later condition, and in sparring too.
Blows from guys like Blin may not look hard to you but they all add up.

He perhaps should have retired after the Oscar Bonavena fight. That one indicated that things were going to different in post-layoff career, he would have to take a lot of punches against the top fighters.

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by BillB

I wonder if Clay was "perfectly conditioned" for that fight.

It's a known fact he didn't like to train.

Would he have gotten in perfect shape knowing the fight would only last a couple of minutes?

Mr. Bill B.,

I have to honest, Cassius was 'chopping wood' like a madman at
Chicopee, Massaschusetts in early-May 1965.

He couldn't take it 'for granted' that Sonny would fulfill his obligation to
the 'Las Vegas Businessmen'.

Remember, you still have to look good for an 'acting performance'.

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by BillB

Doug Jones
Norton III
Jimmy Young
Shavers

Ali at his best- with help from his friends.

All the bouts you mention were either pre prime or post Manilla. None of them were what may have been considered 'legacy' bouts,which occured during the 1964-75 phase of his career,imo.

The Jones and Shavers bouts were very much 'close but no cigar' for Doug and Earnie. Muhammad was indeed lucky getting the verdicts in the Young and Norton III fights.

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by red cobra

Watch his fight with Rudi Lubbers...scintillating, just scintillating

Not the most exciting bout involving Muhammad,Cobra ! True.


Only the unique inter round interviews in Ali's corner made it worth watching.

[cuchulain]

Considering the stage of Clay/Ali's career and the quality of the opponent, Liston 1 could well be his best performance.

[bowerboy]

That video of him dodging those Ernie Terrel punches is incredible and encapsulates what Ali was all about...why make a guy miss by 2 inches when he only needs to miss by 2mm...perfection.