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Old 11-16-2012, 08:09 AM   #1
Senor Pepe'
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Default Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

May 25, 1965

Sonny Liston, had to lose in his Championship Bout with Cassius Clay.

1) Every boxing commission in the United States had already banned him,
except for the State of Maine.

2) Even if he had won, there was no place he could have defended his
Championship

3) Even in Europe, he would not have been able to get a bout with a
decent Challenger.

4) Sonny Liston would make 5-times more money as an Officer in I-C-P
promoting Cassius Clay's next fight, than if he had won the Heavyweight Championship
and received a fight purse.

5) If Sonny had won, there was no way a 'third bout' with Cassius Clay
would take place anyway.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:12 AM   #2
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Old 11-16-2012, 08:18 AM   #3
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post

1) Every boxing commission in the United States had already banned him,
except for the State of Maine.
So what? That doesn't mean he "has to lose".

Quote:
2) Even if he had won, there was no place he could have defended his
Championship
How about Maine? Failing that, how about Sweden, where he fought his next fight anyway?

Quote:
3) Even in Europe, he would not have been able to get a bout with a
decent Challenger.
Based upon what? To be clear, you think that NOBODY IN THE WORLD would be willing to fight against the HW champion of the world in Europe or Canada?
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

What was the point of the fight in Lewiston, Maine anyway ?
Did it make any money with the theatre TV ?

Just about every one of Sonny Liston's title fights was a farce. 3/4 of them anyway.
The first fight with Patterson was necessary.
Liston's next 3 outings were cynical or comical insults to the intelligence of boxing fans (most of whom may not have had much intelligence, granted).
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post

4) Sonny Liston would make 5-times more money as an Officer in I-C-P
promoting Cassius Clay's next fight, than if he had won the Heavyweight Championship
and received a fight purse.
elaborate on that one ^^
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:46 AM   #6
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Possibly one of the more ignorant posts by a poster with a plethora of ignorant posts.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:11 AM   #7
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
What was the point of the fight in Lewiston, Maine anyway ?
Did it make any money with the theatre TV ?

Just about every one of Sonny Liston's title fights was a farce. 3/4 of them anyway.
The first fight with Patterson was necessary.
Liston's next 3 outings were cynical or comical insults to the intelligence of boxing fans (most of whom may not have had much intelligence, granted).
The May 25, 1965 bout was a 'done deal' with the closed circuit theatre
operators, with $3,500,000 in signed contacts. It had to go through, or
law suits galore would have taken place.

The Clay-Liston II bout did approximately $4,200,000 in gross receipts.

I-C-P and the Las Vegas wheels had already pre-negotiated a Clay vs.
Patterson bout for late-1965.

That fight was the 'only' real big money fight out there.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:29 AM   #8
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
The May 25, 1965 bout was a 'done deal' with the closed circuit theatre
operators, with $3,500,000 in signed contacts. It had to go through, or
law suits galore would have taken place.

The Clay-Liston II bout did approximately $4,200,000 in gross receipts.

I-C-P and the Las Vegas wheels had already pre-negotiated a Clay vs.
Patterson bout for late-1965.

That fight was the 'only' real big money fight out there.

If Clay had lost in Lewiston, the Clay-Patterson fight wouldn't have been worth anything.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by BillB View Post
If Clay had lost in Lewiston, the Clay-Patterson fight wouldn't have been worth anything.
The Cassius Clay vs. Floyd Patterson bout in Las Vegas.

Gross Receipts..........$5,350,000

Inter-Continental-Promotions reaped in 20%, $1,000,000 plus.

Had Sonny defeated Cassius Clay in May 1965, there was no place to go.

Sonny was also banned from fighting in Canada, so a George Chuvalo
bout was impossible.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:55 AM   #10
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
Possibly one of the more ignorant posts by a poster with a plethora of ignorant posts.
he's alright...brighten's the place up around here i think.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:01 AM   #11
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
The Cassius Clay vs. Floyd Patterson bout in Las Vegas.

Gross Receipts..........$5,350,000

Inter-Continental-Promotions reaped in 20%, $1,000,000 plus.

Had Sonny defeated Cassius Clay in May 1965, there was no place to go.

Sonny was also banned from fighting in Canada, so a George Chuvalo
bout was impossible.
Yeah, and the Las Vegas casinos (who were connected to Sonny Liston) would have made some big money as fight fans passed through.
It's hard to say how much, but by the 1980s the casinos were paying the promoters to bring fights to them (rather than the promoters hiring the venue), so the receipts must be significant.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:11 AM   #12
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Some money numbers,,,,,,,

With I-C-P in control

Sonny Liston vs. Cassius Clay I......Gross Recepits....$4,922,000 (Live Gate - $400,000)

Cassius Clay vs. Sonny Liston II......Gross Recepits....$4,400,000 (Live Gate - $200,000)

Cassius Clay vs. Floyd Patterson.....Gross Receipts....$5,350,000 (Live Gate - $300,000)


After Inter-Continental-Promotions completed their 2-fight option contract with Cassius Clay, they were off in another direction.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
The Cassius Clay vs. Floyd Patterson bout in Las Vegas.

Gross Receipts..........$5,350,000

Inter-Continental-Promotions reaped in 20%, $1,000,000 plus.

Had Sonny defeated Cassius Clay in May 1965, there was no place to go.

Sonny was also banned from fighting in Canada, so a George Chuvalo
bout was impossible.
It doesn't take a genius to see that Clay-Liston II was screaming for a fix.

That's without even watching it.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:23 AM   #14
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillB View Post
It doesn't take a genius to see that Clay-Liston II was screaming for a fix.

That's without even watching it.
The only 'big money' name out there was Floyd Patterson.

And Las Vegas would never have sanctioned a Sonny Liston vs Floyd Patterson III bout.

Plus, Sonny's contracts were all under scrutiny. He was done in the
United States, and all other countries with a Boxing Commission.

The only reason it got to Lewiston, Maine - is beacuse they were
desperate for anything, and William Faversham Jr. had connections up there.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:12 AM   #15
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by doug.ie View Post
elaborate on that one ^^
Sonny Liston will make 5-times more money as an officer (President) of
Inter-Continental-Promotions than if he had regained the Championship Title
from Cassius Clay on May 25, 1965.

As a fighter, you can also 'not' be the promoter of a fight, as per
the rules with boxing commissions in all governing states.

If Sonny Liston regained the Championship, he would have only be able
to collect 30% of his fight purse, after taxes. (70% marginal tax rate).

But, as a fight promoter, he would have been taxed on the corporate rate.

I-C-P had the rights to promote Cassius Clay's next fight, (after Lewiston, Maine).

Sonny would have reaped in more money as an Officer of I-C-P, than actually
fighting in the ring.

Plus, the Cassius Clay vs. Floyd Patterson bout was a 'certified blockbuster',
with an estimated gross revenue of $5,000,000.

If Sonny Liston had regained the Championship on May 25, 1965 - what do you
think would have been the next fight.

Maybe George Chuvalo or Ernie Terrell, which would have been lucky to do $500,000.
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