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Old 11-15-2012, 12:28 PM   #136
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in HW boxing histor

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Its like dempsey-wills in that respect. Two guys head and shoulders above their peers.
Very similar case, luf. Dempsey wouldn't fight a brother too.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:31 PM   #137
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in HW boxing histor

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Very similar case, luf. Dempsey wouldn't fight a brother too.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:21 PM   #138
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in HW boxing histor

And yet, he's still universally recognized as a top shelf, legendary heavyweight.

Some fights don't get made. I try to judge a guy based on the results and the performances as much as I can...Ducking is a knock, obviously, but when the ducking is 100% mutual, I don't know that it can be called avoiding. That's where I think I give him a bit of a pass; Even if he wanted the fight tomorrow morning, he couldn't get it, and vice versa.
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:37 PM   #139
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Fair enough Stonehands, you are excused.

Since you have relationships in boxing, you should ask those who have sparred with Wlad in the gym. Youíll hear plenty of accolades on his speed, power and skill. And his stamina, and mobility. None of these things have to do with his size. As they say in boxing, the fighters know.

You could say a dominating champion who meets the best in their prime, and beats them all in a talent rich era is extremely rare. While this isnít a talent rich era, Wlad will meet anyone, and dispatches the majority of them without any close calls on the score cards.
I recognize that Wlad presents difficult obstacles -men that size usually do if they have command of the fundamentals. I have sparred myself with giants and it isn't easy; but they are in fact slower than smaller men, and they are not technicians (with a few exceptions). They rely on a few simple principles that are tough to overcome -and a lot tougher if you fight them at the wrong range and in the wrong way like so many of his opponents tend to do.

Wlad will not meet anyone. He gets a pass for it and it's a pass I understand, but to call him the world champion anyway only emphasizes the disarray that boxing is in. The sport doesn't even have rules of succession that it stands by.

Wlad is the premiere heavyweight of his era. In some ways, that is a greater complement than calling him a world champion.
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:46 PM   #140
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in HW boxing histor

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Belts are title claims. Those claiming to be champions should fight each other to determine a champion who is unified and undisputed.
If the WBS racketeers happen to have a belt around the true champion, it's by happenstance alone. Don't believe the hype -belts are not title claims because how they are distributed depends on corrupt or nonsensical practices.

Need proof? Go take a look at their rankings or read up on their criminal history. There's plenty to see.

It astounds me that anyone would take them seriously. It really does.
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:53 PM   #141
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
I recognize that Wlad presents difficult obstacles -men that size usually do if they have command of the fundamentals. I have sparred myself with giants and it isn't easy; but they are in fact slower than smaller men, and they are not technicians (with a few exceptions). They rely on a few simple principles that are tough to overcome -and a lot tougher if you fight them at the wrong range and in the wrong way like so many of his opponents tend to do.
Giants are generally slower than smaller men, but not always, and certainly not in Wlad's case. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Wlad is one of the fastest heavies out there at the moment; only Chambers and Haye are faster, and it's really not by much as their one sided losses showed us. And he has some of the best footwork in the game, really an excellent command of distance. Fighters don't choose to fight him at the wrong range, he makes them fight at that range. Watch the Haye fight again and pay attention to how consistently he keeps Haye at the end of his jab, and how effectively he cuts down the ring. Those are premier skills regardless of size.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:02 PM   #142
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Giants are generally slower than smaller men, but not always, and certainly not in Wlad's case. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Wlad is one of the fastest heavies out there at the moment; only Chambers and Haye are faster, and it's really not by much as their one sided losses showed us. And he has some of the best footwork in the game, really an excellent command of distance. Fighters don't choose to fight him at the wrong range, he makes them fight at that range. Watch the Haye fight again and pay attention to how consistently he keeps Haye at the end of his jab, and how effectively he cuts down the ring. Those are premier skills regardless of size.
If you want to train for speed, you don't go finding a big man. That's plain. Wlad's speed is nothing like the vast majority of welterweights -who I always found tougher to handle than heavies -because of the speed. Not to mention the better technique that you could almost always assume correctly.

Wlad is objectively good with distance and commanding space. Giants learn that first. And yes his legs move well -for a big man. Sure. But he has not been tested by this sorry lot we have today, including Haye. I don't have to watch their fights against Wlad to note how amateurish they are.

Wlad's skills are not even close to even Bowe's skills, particularly in Holyfield I. Not even close. He has a basic game plan with a few simple nuances added in now and then that work well, given his size. But he is not a technician. That's just a damn fact.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:25 PM   #143
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
If you want to train for speed, you don't go finding a big man. That's plain. Wlad's speed is nothing like the vast majority of welterweights -who I always found tougher to handle than heavies -because of the speed. Not to mention the better technique that you could almost always assume correctly.

Wlad is objectively good with distance and commanding space. Giants learn that first. And yes his legs move well -for a big man. Sure. But he has not been tested by this sorry lot we have today, including Haye. I don't have to watch their fights against Wlad to note how amateurish they are.

Wlad's skills are not even close to even Bowe's skills, particularly in Holyfield I. Not even close. He has a basic game plan with a few simple nuances added in now and then that work well, given his size. But he is not a technician. That's just a damn fact.
Wlad is a far better operator than Bowe because he has learned how to dictate pace and distance and keep out of the line of fire. Those are far more effective skills than thinking at 6-5 with 82" reach you can trade on the inside every fight. Call that approach skilled it you want. I call if foolhardy... and Bowe's short career bears me out. Wlad learned to fight to his assets, something Bowe did not learn.

Wlad also does some very cute things with a snaking right hand, hooking very hard off the jab, and changing pace on his devastating jab.

The first thing a coach tells you when you are 6-5 is to fight big not small. It's fairly basic.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:42 PM   #144
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Wlad is a far better operator than Bowe because he has learned how to dictate pace and distance and keep out of the line of fire. Those are far more effective skills than thinking at 6-5 with 82" reach you can trade on the inside every fight. Call that approach skilled it you want. I call if foolhardy... and Bowe's short career bears me out. Wlad learned to fight to his assets, something Bowe did not learn.

Wlad also does some very cute things with a snaking right hand, hooking very hard off the jab, and changing pace on his devastating jab.

The first thing a coach tells you when you are 6-5 is to fight big not small. It's fairly basic.
Riddick Bowe was talented, and had great mechanics.

For being a Futch student, though, his fundamentals and his ring IQ were awful.

Wlad doesn't have the inside game, but he's superior everywhere else. I'd agree. Riddick was incredibly formidable for a couple of years. For the rest of it, not near as much as he gets credit for.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:30 AM   #145
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
If you want to train for speed, you don't go finding a big man. That's plain. Wlad's speed is nothing like the vast majority of welterweights -who I always found tougher to handle than heavies -because of the speed. Not to mention the better technique that you could almost always assume correctly.
You find boxing welterweights a tougher assignment than heavyweights ?
That's unusual.

Quote:
Wlad is objectively good with distance and commanding space. Giants learn that first. And yes his legs move well -for a big man. Sure. But he has not been tested by this sorry lot we have today, including Haye. I don't have to watch their fights against Wlad to note how amateurish they are.
I think most of the recent lot lack intensity rather than technique.
Looking at the Ali-Frazier-Foreman fights I see a hell of a lot of stuff that could be called "amateurish" (for want of a better word), but they make up for it in their intensity, hunger to win, making them entertaining to watch.


Quote:
Wlad's skills are not even close to even Bowe's skills, particularly in Holyfield I. Not even close. He has a basic game plan with a few simple nuances added in now and then that work well, given his size. But he is not a technician. That's just a damn fact.
How do you define a technician ?

I'd say Wlad shows more "skill" than Bowe, but maybe not as many "skills".
If a fighter can use a limited amount of techniques and stick to the same formula over and over with great success by making the right moves at the right moment and dictating pace and distance etc. that is a demonstration of GREAT SKILL, or ring generalship.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:33 AM   #146
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Wlad is a far better operator than Bowe because he has learned how to dictate pace and distance and keep out of the line of fire. Those are far more effective skills than thinking at 6-5 with 82" reach you can trade on the inside every fight. Call that approach skilled it you want. I call if foolhardy... and Bowe's short career bears me out. Wlad learned to fight to his assets, something Bowe did not learn.

Wlad also does some very cute things with a snaking right hand, hooking very hard off the jab, and changing pace on his devastating jab.

The first thing a coach tells you when you are 6-5 is to fight big not small. It's fairly basic.
Wlad maybe 'fights big' but I've noticed he doesn't 'fight tall'. He tends to crouch down to his opponents, and hangs his chin out there a bit, perhaps to draw them in to his jab.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:48 AM   #147
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in HW boxing histor

Wlad also has some major league intangibles he uses to his advantage. Like his pre-fight preperations. He actually listens to his corner and follows instructions.

Another thing he does is take a page out of the Lewis bag of tricks--on film it looks easy against them. Once in the ring it's a whole different ballgame. And you can see opponents in the non-comfort zone and attempting to make adjustments quickly. But it is not anywhere near as easy as they thought. They widely underestimate footwork and angles.

Then, it's that jab. What Wlad does great is to nullify with that jab. Far more important than the power aspect is the absolute perfect timing he throws it. Beautiful. He fires it off just at the millisecond before the opponent is getting set to launch. Absolute perfection and razor sharp timing regarding that moment the opponent cannot handle it. And it is a very tight window and just how many can pull it off? He nullifies the opponents outside game as well as Jimmy Young did and maybe right there with Muhammad Ali. These guys just break any sort of rythym and the opponents can't even think about countering it--they get hit right at that one point when they are out of range and don't have the proper balance to launch themselves. That's why those guys were almost impossible to counter their jabs--a prime Young did not get countered. Ali. Wlad. With all those opponents and rounds, just who countered the thousands of jabs those guys threw?
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:55 AM   #148
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in HW boxing histor

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
If the WBS racketeers happen to have a belt around the true champion, it's by happenstance alone. Don't believe the hype -belts are not title claims because how they are distributed depends on corrupt or nonsensical practices.

Need proof? Go take a look at their rankings or read up on their criminal history. There's plenty to see.

It astounds me that anyone would take them seriously. It really does.
You're missing the point stoney. The racket is neither here nor there.

The belts have prestige, when a man hold the belt he calls himself a champion. He claims to be a champion.

A belt is a title claim. The organisations might be corrupt but the fighters strive to hold them belts and whilst that prestige remains, so must their importance.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:16 AM   #149
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Wlad maybe 'fights big' but I've noticed he doesn't 'fight tall'. He tends to crouch down to his opponents, and hangs his chin out there a bit, perhaps to draw them in to his jab.
he doesn't really crouch anymore

he used to crouch before Sanders knocked him out, he has been fighting taller under Steward
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:28 AM   #150
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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he doesn't really crouch anymore

he used to crouch before Sanders knocked him out, he has been fighting taller under Steward
He fought quite short against Haye.
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