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Old 11-16-2012, 09:36 AM   #16
Lord Tywin
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Do you even know how betting on boxing works? The odds shifted to 3-1 because of all the late money on Fox. Thats how betting odds get shifted. They are fluid and determined by the amount of bets on each fighter. If the odds were even the day before the fight and 3-1 at fight time it indicates that a large amount of money was bet on Fox at even money just prior to the fight. Late money is smart money as the saying goes.

I dont have to read a newspaper, Ive watched the Kefauver hearings which you can get from the library of Congress. He discusses his spleen injury and states that he was offered $100,000 to throw the fight. He only wanted a title shot. He agreed to the fix stating that the spleen (which was legitimate) gave him a built in excuse for his performance.

Nothing you say about Joey offers any proof whatsoever. Joey took the fifth. You take the fifth on the grounds that it might incriminate you. If Joey wasnt complicit why would would he take the fifth? Why not just refute LaMotta's statement? Historically taking the fifth generally points toward some level of guilt in the act you are asked to testify about. So you kind of shoot yourself in the foot with that argument.

You ask why Palermo (i.e. Carbo) would offer money to Jake to throw the fight. Thats a pretty naive question. They had a vested interest in keeping their fighter in the rankings. They also made money on the betting. And Lamotta stated plainly all that he was interested in was a title shot. Why would LaMotta lie about it when he was dealing with very dangerous people. Far more dangerous than a boxer.

Do you deny that these guys were involved in regular fight fixes, and manipulation? If you do I suggest you get yourself a tape or transcript of the Kefauver hearings, or read a few books dealing with this era whereby you will see their names continually pop up in dealings such as this.

I see you say you are from Russia so I can only assume that you arent that familiar with our legal system, and have limited access to sources. If that is the case why make such a bold statement as denying there was ever a fix?
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:52 AM   #17
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Fox absolutely sucked as a fighter, he was incapable of beating even an injured lamotta. The mob won every victory for Fox.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:06 AM   #18
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

I'd advise you to look up Fox's hometown, and think when do people from that town come to see the fight? As I said, two commissions investigated the bout, and they obviously looked to find suspicuous bettors who'd offer enormously large sums on Fox, but they didn't find anything.

He discusses it during the hearing in June 1960? Do you have a link? If he accepted to take a dive, why did he not take the $100,000, and why did he have to pay $20,000 to get a title shot?

Joey had several decades after that to admit or refute the thing. If he admitted it in 1960, he'd have endangerd himself. If he refuted it, he'd have endangered his own brother for false testimony. I'm not shooting anyone.

Fox was ranked in Top 10 at light heavy, and wasn't about to lose his ranking. LaMotta was ranked in Top 10 at middleweight, if I recall correctly.

I'm not denying it, but there's no evidence at all except LaMotta's vague (I didn't do anything, my brother arranged everything, I forgot the names and everything) testimony. And there's hard proof (not refuted by Jake himself) of an injury which could not do otherwise than make him fight timid, punching very little and not rushing as was usual for him.

I never denied there was a fix. Why would I if I were not born yet when the fight had taken place and I have never met anybody involved in it. Only people who were there and were directly involved can deny or admit anything. I can only serve as a judge and evaluate the evidence to come to conclusion. If your legal system is different that doesn't mean I can't evaluate the facts or other evidence to prove one or the other version more or less probable. The same way the judges in your and my country do.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:07 AM   #19
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Fox absolutely sucked as a fighter, he was incapable of beating even an injured lamotta. The mob won every victory for Fox.
You have just indirectly accused tens of renowned contemporary experts/writers of being totally incompenent and naive when it came to Billy Fox, and not knowing what they saw when sitting at ringside watching tens of his fights.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:28 AM   #20
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

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Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
I'd advise you to look up Fox's hometown, and think when do people from that town come to see the fight? As I said, two commissions investigated the bout, and they obviously looked to find suspicuous bettors who'd offer enormously large sums on Fox, but they didn't find anything.

He discusses it during the hearing in June 1960? Do you have a link? If he accepted to take a dive, why did he not take the $100,000, and why did he have to pay $20,000 to get a title shot?

Joey had several decades after that to admit or refute the thing. If he admitted it in 1960, he'd have endangerd himself. If he refuted it, he'd have endangered his own brother for false testimony. I'm not shooting anyone.

Fox was ranked in Top 10 at light heavy, and wasn't about to lose his ranking. LaMotta was ranked in Top 10 at middleweight, if I recall correctly.

I'm not denying it, but there's no evidence at all except LaMotta's vague (I didn't do anything, my brother arranged everything, I forgot the names and everything) testimony. And there's hard proof (not refuted by Jake himself) of an injury which could not do otherwise than make him fight timid, punching very little and not rushing as was usual for him.

I never denied there was a fix. Why would I if I were not born yet when the fight had taken place and I have never met anybody involved in it. Only people who were there and were directly involved can deny or admit anything. I can only serve as a judge and evaluate the evidence to come to conclusion. If your legal system is different that doesn't mean I can't evaluate the facts or other evidence to prove one or the other version more or less probable. The same way the judges in your and my country do.

Once again you dont know what you are talking about. Joey never refuted it. By the time he died he couldnt have been prosecuted for it and neither could his brother, so your little theory is flawed.

A link? No, go to the library of congress, order a copy, and be enlightened. Dont be content with just sitting on your ass and waiting for it to pop up on youtube. Your problem is you are limited to what you can find on the internet when that isnt even 1/10 of what is available.

Just because a half assed investigation didnt find anything doesnt mean it didnt happen. How do you prove it? Have you read about the DA's invesitigation? Everybody refused to talk, or denied it, as would be expected. You say they would follow a betting trail. Back to what? The people who won? Ok, once you find them they have to be willing to talk. If you have no witnesses, no body, and no smoking gun you cant really do anything. LaMotta was fined and suspended for 7 months for not reporting his spleen injury. Years later his sparring partner said the fight was an obvious fix. He never mentioned anything about LaMotta being in such bad shape from the injury that he couldnt even spar, yet he was a kitten against Fox, so bad that several New York papers reported the fight as an obvious fix and prompted an investigation. James Dawson, Lester Bromberg, Dan Parker, Jim Jennings, were all outraged by the fight. You realize that the Kefauver hearings didnt directly impact boxing either despite the tesimony of numerous fighters and managers going back to the 1920s of organized crime involvement in the sport, including direct testimony given of fixes, you do realize that right?

You also realize that Carbo and Palermo werent caught until a year after the Kefauver Hearings in a sting set up as a independant operation by the Los Angeles Police Department for Carbo and Palermo's violation of the Hobbs Act. Had nothing to do with the Kefauver hearings, but was the direct result of an investigation going back two or three years into an attempt to strong arm Don Jordan and his manager.

What is your point about Fox's ranking? Fox had already been beaten by Lesnevich once convincingly. They needed to legitimize another title shot for him and being the first guy to stop LaMotta would add some legitimacy. That was the thinking anyway. I guess you think all of Fox's fights were legitimate. Or maybe you think all of them except this one were fixed? Too many people who know far more about the sport and this period of boxing disagree with you to give your misguided claims any credence.

You say you can only serve as a judge and evaluate the evidence before you but you obviously dont have all of the evidence and arent looking at what evidence you do have with a correct frame of reference.

Last edited by Lord Tywin; 11-16-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:58 AM   #21
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Exactly what I said at the very beginning, he had a lot of time when neither he, nor Jake could be prosecuted for admitting or refuting it or threatened by the mafia.

There were two investigations regarding that particular bout and a third one regarding boxing in New York state in general. None of the three had found any irregularities about the LaMotta-Fox bout.

LaMotta was a ranked middleweight. By beating him Fox didn't gain much. He wasn't about to lose his rankings or be denied another chance with the champion.

Don't attribute me with things I didn't say. I never said all of Fox's fights were legitimate. The fact is, I don't know. All I know is:
- the results of three commissions investigations in 1947-1948 had found no evidence of a fix in that bout,
- the admitted injury that had to affect Jake's performance, especially after Fox pounded him to the body in the first round,
- Fox being a big favorite was not for the first time in his career, also considering Jake was found to be about 5 pounds heavier than expected, and the income of Philadelphia money the day of the fight, the odds had to shift in Fox's favor, regardless whether it was fixed or not,
- rumors about fixed fights were nothing new, they were appearing every now and then regarding big fights, as commented on by contemporary writers,
- plenty of knowledgable writers who were at ringside considered Fox's punches to be very hard and Jake taking a real beating in that bout, especially when he got stuck on the ropes and couldn't get out of there for a while, why would LaMotta take so much punishment before stopping to fight back (some reporters claimed that after the fight had been stopped Jake ran around the referee and renewed the fight and had to be pulled away, he was in tears also when sitting in his corner),
- that Jake lowered his hands and stuck out his chin to Fox was a trick of his that he had showed in multiple other fights, where he'd make his opponent lead at him and counter them as they are coming in, increasing the effect of his counter - this is not my opinion, but of contemporary writers who commented on this tactics of Jake.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

You keep associating Joey's silence with proof that LaMotta didnt take a dive. Joeys silence was just that, silence. It didnt prove one way or the other. At best his taking the fifth illustrates that he did in fact have some part in the fix.

Again, simply because an investigation doesnt prove anything doesnt mean it didnt happen. Dont be so naive. How many investigations have there been in to Don King that have failed. How many investigations into mob figures have gone nowhere? Are you so naive that you think that proves innocence?

Things like this are very hard to prove unless the conspirators come forward which one did in 1960, Lamotta.

You say that Fox had nothing to gain by beating LaMotta but again thats incredibly naive. LaMotta was a very highly regarded fighter who had never beenn stopped. A stoppage over him, even at a higher weight would be a feather in his cap and give credence to his challenge of Lesnevich. This of course also completely ignores the fact that LaMotta had been discussed as a possible challenger for Lesnevich and that the bout was promoted under the idea that the winner would fight Lesnevich.

Yes he dropped his hands and refused to fight back, letting Fox hit him. He had done this in the past but in the past he had actually come back to launch counter attacks. This time he just did nothing. You are willing to accept the words of the writers on this point but ignore that they thought this fight was highly suspicious.

You can believe what you want but you seem to be ill informed on several points, and unwilling to accept the pervasive influence of organized crime in boxing at this time.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:21 PM   #23
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

I express my opinion, no more, no less. If Joey admitted there was a fix later (many-many years after 1960), it'd be accepted with "we knew it". If he admitted there was no fix, it's hurt his relationships with his brother as well as hurt Jake's reputation, that he lied all this time. Silence can be interpreted too.

Three investigations started immediately or soon after the bout, two of which were looking into that particular bout only vs. general anti-mafia investigation more than a decade later that didn't find any proof of a fix except Jake's words, some of which he even took back. Let me see, what should I trust more? If somebody is naive here, it's not me.

Things like this are conspiracy theories, that contradict the principle of Occam's razor.

I repeat, LaMotta was a middleweight, who was thought to have gone back after making 154 1/2 pounds for Janiro fight (which bout also was investigated as being a fix, same as Marcel Cerdan bout). LaMotta had just lost to Cecil Hudson prior to Fox bout. Give me a break with your stories about his immense reputation at the time.

You didn't seem to read what I wrote. I said he was waiting for counters. Fox was fighting at long range at the time, something that didn't suit LaMotta, thus he invited him to come in close. Fox didn't do that, Jake figured his trick didn't work and didn't do it again. How would he counter if the opponent didn't get tricked and didn't come closer?

I know plenty about the crime in boxing at the time. I also know logic and theory of knowledge very well, and have a lot of experience in historical research so as not to trust somebody's words without seeing actual evidence, and to have less faith in secondary sources than in primary ones. I certainly don't trust Jake LaMotta's words as blindly as you do, and have done plenty of my own research on this bout using multiple primary local sources.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:44 PM   #24
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

It was fixed.There was a shit storm at the time because of it. Too many people knew LaMotta was going to lose in the week before the fight.

Billy Fox was probably a very good fighter though.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

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Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
I express my opinion, no more, no less. If Joey admitted there was a fix later (many-many years after 1960), it'd be accepted with "we knew it". If he admitted there was no fix, it's hurt his relationships with his brother as well as hurt Jake's reputation, that he lied all this time. Silence can be interpreted too.

Three investigations started immediately or soon after the bout, two of which were looking into that particular bout only vs. general anti-mafia investigation more than a decade later that didn't find any proof of a fix except Jake's words, some of which he even took back. Let me see, what should I trust more? If somebody is naive here, it's not me.

Things like this are conspiracy theories, that contradict the principle of Occam's razor.

I repeat, LaMotta was a middleweight, who was thought to have gone back after making 154 1/2 pounds for Janiro fight (which bout also was investigated as being a fix, same as Marcel Cerdan bout). LaMotta had just lost to Cecil Hudson prior to Fox bout. Give me a break with your stories about his immense reputation at the time.

You didn't seem to read what I wrote. I said he was waiting for counters. Fox was fighting at long range at the time, something that didn't suit LaMotta, thus he invited him to come in close. Fox didn't do that, Jake figured his trick didn't work and didn't do it again. How would he counter if the opponent didn't get tricked and didn't come closer?

I know plenty about the crime in boxing at the time. I also know logic and theory of knowledge very well, and have a lot of experience in historical research so as not to trust somebody's words without seeing actual evidence, and to have less faith in secondary sources than in primary ones. I certainly don't trust Jake LaMotta's words as blindly as you do, and have done plenty of my own research on this bout using multiple primary local sources.
Why would Joey care about Jakes feelings. They didnt get along later in life and rarely spoke.

Ive already covered the investigations. If you choose to believe a failed investigation is proof of anything fine. Enlighten us on the results of the general investigation into organized crime's involvement in boxingn in 1948. What did they find? Nothing. Oh well, I guess organized crime had absolutely no involvement in boxing then. Thats good to know. Poor Carbo, Dragna, Palermo and all those other gangsters must have been sent up the river unjustly and were just as pure as the driven snow. Or maybe they just didnt get involved in boxing until much later than is commonly accepted or was testified to later on everyone who knew the inside story. Talk about burying your head in the sand.

So now LaMotta had no reputation? He had a loss but he was also a top ten middleweight, and had been for years, usually right near the top. He weighed 167 for Fox in a fight that the winner was going to get a title shot at Lesnevich. The winner being Fox, as it was prearranged... But thats ok, according to you he had no reputation.

You say you wont listen to secondary sources but you wont listen to any first hand sources either. You ignore LaMotta, you ignore Fox, you ignore the plethora of writers who thought it was a fix and reported on it both before the fight and after. Instead you latch onto Joeys silence, and an investigation that went nowhere, and pick and choose tidbits from articles that only suit your argument. For a guy with so much background in historical research you dont sound very reliable. Who is positing conspiracy theories?

You have never once given any shred of a motive as to why LaMotta would concoct such a story which not only made him look bad but also threatened his safety. He never made any excuses about any other losses that I can see. So why do that? If he was just trying to save face for a loss why go before the Kefauver hearings and testify under oath? Why go through everything he went through for a story? Have you seen the kefauver hearings? Have you seen how those went for him? I doubt it. If you had I dont think you would question this or the impact that it had on him.

Do you think Ike Williams wasnt offered a bribe to throw a fight to Gavilan? Or that Carmen Basilio didnt pay for his title shot? Or any of the other dozens of revelations that came out in those hearings? What about Robinson's claim that he was offered a bribe to throw the Graziano fight? Or Graziano's claim of a bribe? Did Ray Arcel lie about the death threats and eventual attack he was a victim of when trying to go up against these guys for TV rights? Was Cus Damato just crazy when he slept with his bed blocking his bedroom door and loaded shotgun next to him when he tried to break their monopoly? For every one of those instances there are a dozen more at least that I havent named and probably a dozen for each of those that went unreported. Why would these guys lie about it? I guess it was just vogue to make up meaningless claims under oath about guys who could kill you.

You come off as one of those people from this time period who refused to acknowledge that organized crime even existed.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:14 PM   #26
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

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Old 11-16-2012, 01:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Whatever, he had a reason not to make a fool of his brother, even if they didn't get along well.

If we go by your logic, any unexpected loss had mafia involved. So who stood behind Lesnevich that he had beaten Fox twice (when in their first bout Fox was a 4 to 1 favorite, due to Lesnevich poor performances prior to that)? How was Palermo involved in Jake getting a title shot at Marcel Cerdan?

LaMotta had a reputation, but not a very big one at the time, not big enough, and not at light heavyweight, to be worth an offer of $100,000 to throw a fight.

You should read the definition of primary/secondary sources and how it is different from first-hand source. They are two different things. Jack Dempsey made a lot of first-hand claims in his multiple bios and auto-bios, which were contradicted by primary sources.

If you haven't read many write-ups from that time, you should spend some time doing that. Then you will indeed come to conclusion that almost every big fight was fixed one way or another, as the rumors were flying in the air most of the time. Why, most of the time they turned out to be bullshit, but we'll still believe in them, or at least the ones that suit our opinion/mood/whatever. I repeat, the 1960 commission investigated not only his fight with Billy Fox, but also with Tony Janiro and with Marcel Cerdan. Both fights have must have been fixed by your logic, there were enough rumors to be worth to be investigated.

It's a double-edged blade. You have come up with not a single shred of a motive as to why LaMotta had done that. That certainly wasn't going to whiten his reputation, over a decade had gone and everybody forgot that he lost, but many cherished the memories that it was a fix, despite the lack of evidence. Why get back to it? If you are so familiar with the hearings, what did he say about the offer of $100,000 to lose the Janiro fight?

For every fight that was "found out" (yeah) to have been fixed, you can find ten bouts that had rumors flying in the air prior to the bout, but where there turned out to be no fix. You are using induction and deduction selectively. Sorry, that doesn't work.

As I said, Graziano stated that he was offered bribes for two of his bouts in 1946/1947 already. The same commission consequently investigated the LaMotta-Fox bout. Graziano didn't get killed, even though it was more dangerous than in 1960.

I don't deny it existed, all I'm doing is not accepting old-time stories blindly. Certainly not trusting LaMotta's words per se, without hearing more proof. There was revealed none, not even a testimony of his brother when there was no danger to either of them.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

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It was fixed.There was a shit storm at the time because of it. Too many people knew LaMotta was going to lose in the week before the fight.
So many people and so many rumors that from slight favorite a week or more before the fight LaMotta only got down to even or 5-to-6 underdog the day before the fight? Were they so fed up with such rumors that they didn't believe them anymore, perhaps?
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:31 PM   #29
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

I dub thee THE OSTRICH

You have gone out of your way to blissfully ignore something that has been accepted as fact for well over fifty years by everyone including those closely involved. Even Billy Fox accepted it was fixed. Of all people dont you think he would argue against it? But you go on believing.

Thank god people like you and Pepe who spout this revisionist tripe are not taken seriously by the majority.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:35 PM   #30
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Billy Fox didn't accept such a thing. He said he didn't know anything about LaMotta fight being a fix, he heard the rumors too, but he had no insight whether they were true or not.

People accepted that Willie Pep had won a round without throwing a punch too. Or that Sam McVea - Joe Jeannette fight involved tens of knockdowns. Had been believing in these things for decades, many still do.
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