Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

[dyna]

How would Jeffries fare.
It took Johson 15 rounds to TKO a Jeffries that had to lose 100 pounds and hadn't boxed for 6 years in 110° Fahrenheit.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by dyna

How would Jeffries fare.
It took Johson 15 rounds to TKO a Jeffries that had to lose 100 pounds and hadn't boxed for 6 years in 110° Fahrenheit.

Jeffries and Johnson couldn't agree on the same question.

Johnson said he could not have beaten Jeff in his prime. Jeffries said he could never have beaten Johnson.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by BillB

Jeffries and Johnson couldn't agree on the same question.

Johnson said he could not have beaten Jeff in his prime. Jeffries said he could never have beaten Johnson.

Well, that sucks.

[dyna]

Just saw this post on another forum.

Well, look at their records. Johnson lost his first fight to a lightweight. Well, Johnson was just a teen, so we can excuse him, but he never faced the best primed heavies during the time he held his title. The best part of his career was when he held the colored title, but even then he could still be beat.

Who was the best prime heavy Johnson ever beat? Should be an easy question, but it's surprisingly weak once you study up. At anyrate, Jeffries only had 21 fights when he retired, and he had beat black contenders Bob Armstrong and Hank Griffin in their primes. He also beat HOFer Peter Jackson, but Jackson was reported to have TB and died a few years later. Jeffrey's did beat a prime Sharkey, Corbett, and Fitz, all HOFers and drew with a prime Choynski when Jeff was just a novice.

It would take exceptional modern boxing or KO skills to beat a prime Jeff. Johnson was a good grappler, but an inconsistant boxer and lacked big KO power. He'd give Jeff a tough fight in the beginning, but as the rounds wore on Johnson would fade and be KOed. Johnson relied on his size advantage against smallish middle types. Jeff was a solid 220 lber and as strong or stronger than Johnson, negating Johnson's grappling strength.

If Johnson had just faced a few of the best when he held the title, perhaps he might have proved to be Jeff's equal. Johnson chose not to face the best.

[HOUDINI]

Fleischer knew both fighters personally and watched JJ from ringside. He thought Johnson would beat Jeff prime vs prime. Also there is no doubt that during the reign of JJ he was considered head and shoulders the superior of Jennette, McVey, Langford etc.

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by BillB

Jeffries and Johnson couldn't agree on the same question.

Johnson said he could not have beaten Jeff in his prime. Jeffries said he could never have beaten Johnson.

So... A draw?

[Seamus]

When was Johnson's prime? The best fighters he beat when he weighed 190 or less.

[HOUDINI]

All the noobs are so obsessed with weight. Boxing history is jammed full of huge fighters being absolutely destroyed by smaller faster more highly skilled fighters.

Wlad went down in sections, crazy bad chin/low durability KOs by fighters like Brewster and Purity.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

All the noobs are so obsessed with weight. Boxing history is jammed full of huge fighters being absolutely destroyed by smaller faster more highly skilled fighters.

Wlad went down in sections, crazy bad chin/low durability KOs by fighters like Brewster and Purity.

If I have learned anything from the Classicist Jihad it is that weight classes are a false construction of oppression put upon smaller fighters to protect larger fighters.

Carry on, comrade.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by dyna

How would Jeffries fare.
It took Johson 15 rounds to TKO a Jeffries that had to lose 100 pounds and hadn't boxed for 6 years in 110° Fahrenheit.

I'm going to go for JJ.

[guilalah]

Tough call. Johnson had a good style for Jeffries, with his defense, control of distances, strength tieing up inside and uppercuts. On the other hand, I've read (Moyle) an observer who thought Johnson was a bit tired inthe latter stages of 15 dominating rounds against Langford, and he seemed to be a bit tired in the last few rounds of his fight with Hart. Would you expect Johnson to be less tired against Jeffries? Then again, Johnson fought so many 20 rounders against good opponents you can hardly call hiss stamina a weak spot.

I'd go Johnson in 15 or less, toss-up at 20, Jeffries in 25 or over.

[McGrain]

Toss a coin.

[Brownies]

Originally Posted by Seamus

weight classes are a false construction of oppression put upon smaller fighters to protect larger fighters.

Nice wording there.

[PowerPuncher]

Johnson was just a skill level above, Jeffries knew it, it took 15 rounds but Johnson was toying with his man

Originally Posted by Seamus

When was Johnson's prime? The best fighters he beat when he weighed 190 or less.

1910 for the Jeffries fight, according to himself

[Ramon Rojo]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

All the noobs are so obsessed with weight. Boxing history is jammed full of huge fighters being absolutely destroyed by smaller faster more highly skilled fighters.

Wlad went down in sections, crazy bad chin/low durability KOs by fighters like Brewster and Purity.

Ok, but were those huge fighters any good?

I don't think that anyone says you can win with size alone. There are good big fighters and mediocre big fighters.