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Old 11-16-2012, 02:11 PM   #16
Aaron Contreras
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

Well which Jeffries are we talking about?

Chin prime or not?
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:40 PM   #17
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Johnson was just a skill level above, Jeffries knew it, it took 15 rounds but Johnson was toying with his man



1910 for the Jeffries fight, according to himself
He said a lot of things, some insightful, some ridiculous.

A washed up, retired Jeffries with no tune-ups is bad measuring stick. Using his performances against his highest quality opponents, when was his prime?
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

Johnson beats Jeffries Prime for Prime.. and it would be more competitive than close.
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

And the noobs look at the brothers and believe they are seeing great boxing.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:33 AM   #20
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Jeffries and Johnson couldn't agree on the same question.

Johnson said he could not have beaten Jeff in his prime. Jeffries said he could never have beaten Johnson.
Before they fought Johnson said prime Jeffries was made for him.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:42 AM   #21
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by dyna View Post
How would Jeffries fare.
It took Johson 15 rounds to TKO a Jeffries that had to lose 100 pounds and hadn't boxed for 6 years in 110 Fahrenheit.
Bob Fitzsimmons ringside ,said Johnson could have finished it when he liked ,Tex Rickard the referee agreed.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:43 AM   #22
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Jeffries and Johnson couldn't agree on the same question.

Johnson said he could not have beaten Jeff in his prime. Jeffries said he could never have beaten Johnson.
then they would have fought to a draw






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Old 11-17-2012, 04:23 AM   #23
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Tough call. Johnson had a good style for Jeffries, with his defense, control of distances, strength tieing up inside and uppercuts. On the other hand, I've read (Moyle) an observer who thought Johnson was a bit tired inthe latter stages of 15 dominating rounds against Langford, and he seemed to be a bit tired in the last few rounds of his fight with Hart. Would you expect Johnson to be less tired against Jeffries? Then again, Johnson fought so many 20 rounders against good opponents you can hardly call hiss stamina a weak spot.

I'd go Johnson in 15 or less, toss-up at 20, Jeffries in 25 or over.


Jeffries only went 25 rds once ,against Sharkey who was consideably smaller,[ 6inches ]and lighter, the fight was very close. Jeffries only went over 20 rds one other time against the 188lbs Corbett who was in front when stopped in the 23rd rd, he went 20rds 3 times, once with 180lbs Sharkey once with 167lbs Choynski,and once with 200lbs Ruhlin, the latter 2 fights were draws.
Johnson went 20 rds 11 times most with men as big or bigger and not washed up, retired ex champs.
Johnson went 26 rds with giant Willard when he was 37 and was in front after 20 rds.
Johnso beat 225lbs 6' 4" Pat Lester over 15rds when he was 48 years old.

I dont see any advantage for Jeffries in an extended fight.

If a 210lbs man in his prime is tugging and leaning on a 167lbs/180/188lbs man you would expect him to outlast them , especially if they are coming out of an extended retirement.
What happens when that 210lbs man meets another 210lbs man who is also in his prime and can , not only match him for strength but is more skilled?

Last edited by mcvey; 11-17-2012 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:25 AM   #24
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

Johnson was far more skilled than Jeffries,and he was strong enough to take the 'Boilermaker's best.

Johnson wins but Jeffries gives him a more competitive go than he did in their real fight.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:35 AM   #25
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Johnson beats Jeffries Prime for Prime.. and it would be more competitive than close.
If you throw any possible excuses for Johnson losing pre 1905 ( Choysnki, Klondike, and Griffin ), he still has too many of them, to project a win over a prime Jeffries.


Johnson could not tame Marvin Hart in 1905. Major red flag. This was a high stakes match with the winner having a good chance to fight Jeffries next. Hart won. Jeffries said he would fight Hart if the public interest was there. It was not. Jeffries was above Hart on the level that Wlad or Vitlai is above anyone else today.

In 1909 Johnson was knocked down by a super middle in Ketchel. Once again in 1909 in a 4 round exhibition match, GunBoat Smith, who was close enough in size to Johnson had Johnson down and dazed to the point where Johnson's own manager halted the fight. And then another super middle in Jack O'Brien exposed Johnson by out boxing ( but not out slugging him ) in a 6 round mix opinion match.

In these three matches meetings ( Ketchel, Smith, and O'Brien ), Johnson was in fact exposed. And he was in his absolute prime in 1909. Call the GunBoat Smith meeting less significant because it wasn't an official match. I'll agree. But you have to agree with me that GunBoat who was not in the class of Jeffries as a hitter, made lil' Arthur see stars. If chins are best tested when they are hit, we know when happened here.


Of coruse Johnson at best is viewed as lucky to have survived the Jim Battling Johnson match in 1913 according to the NY times report, and on film he had very close match with a Moran.

If you saw Johnson's top 12 fighters, and throw out the washed up Jeffries he fought, Johnson thinks the guys Jeffries beat were better than the ones he beat.


As Champion, Johnson never fought or defeated prime versions of McVey, Jeanette, or Langford, so we have to seriously look at his struggles with tier two level contenders.

If you saw Johnson's top 12 fighters, and throw out the washed up Jeffries he fought, Johnson thinks the guys Jeffries beat were better than the ones he beat.

To clear up a misconception, Jeffries never said in context that he could not beat Johnson. He said if he was younger, he would have won.

Old, in active for 5 years, fighting in the desert ( never benefits the older fighter ), and having to re-shape his body from 300+ to 225, Jeffries won two rounds, and had a few other close ones before gassing out in the 13.
Had each man meet in their primes, I would pick Jeffries to win via TKO.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:48 AM   #26
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
He said a lot of things, some insightful, some ridiculous.

A washed up, retired Jeffries with no tune-ups is bad measuring stick. Using his performances against his highest quality opponents, when was his prime?
A man tends to know when he's at his best, the level of his competition isn't necessarily a man's prime
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:52 AM   #27
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

Lots of revisionism and false info here.

First of all.....the real reason Jeffries retired was that he saw the great black hwts on the horizon and he realized he could not continue to avoid them. There was a huge push from periodicals of that time, Boxing Gazette for one, that Johnson deserved a title shot. Fleischer wrote about this extensively.

Lots of controversy regarding his bout with Hart. Hart closed strongly but Johnson dominated the first 15. What those that diss Johnson miss is that Johnson was beating up white fighters during a time where blacks were lynched as a daily event. do you think it was easy for him to train or fight in that environment?

Obrien was an all time great lt heavy and was rated the best for well over 50 years at that weight. Over a short distance it's no surprise that he would make a good showing as he danced about the ring doing everything he could not to be hit. Similar to Dempseys fights with Meehan in this regard.

Smith stated in an interview that the Ketchel KD of Johnson was faked. He was at ringside and worked in the Johnson camp so he would be the best to know. Johnson dominated that fight as well.

Johnsons fight with Moran was one sided. Johnson dominated.

Bottom line is Jeffries himself stated that Johnson was a great fighter and that he could not have beaten him even in his prime. Fleischer who knew both men personally as friends and saw them fight live from ringside choose Johnson as the greater fighter.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:32 PM   #28
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
A man tends to know when he's at his best, the level of his competition isn't necessarily a man's prime
Again, Johnson, like so many fighters before and after him, said many ridiculous things and some very insightful things.

I am more concerned with his best victory rather than how his physique flattered the camera. It is conceivable that a "prime" Johnson in fact weight 185 pounds, as he did versus Sam Langford, the middleweight who was the best fighter he ever beat.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:20 PM   #29
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Again, Johnson, like so many fighters before and after him, said many ridiculous things and some very insightful things.

I am more concerned with his best victory rather than how his physique flattered the camera. It is conceivable that a "prime" Johnson in fact weight 185 pounds, as he did versus Sam Langford, the middleweight who was the best fighter he ever beat.
So now you're automatically at your peak when you pull off your best win, I suppose Calzaghe was peak against Hopkins/Kessler then at the age of 37? Was Hopkins at his peak against Pavlik and Tarver too? Was Leonard in 1987?

A ridiculous viewpoint

Anyway maybe Jeffries was Johnson's best win
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:24 PM   #30
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Mendoza #25
Johnson could not tame Marvin Hart in 1905. Major red flag. This was a high stakes match with the winner having a good chance to fight Jeffries next. Hart won. Jeffries said he would fight Hart if the public interest was there. It was not. Jeffries was above Hart on the level that Wlad or Vitlai is above anyone else today
.

I agree there was a lot at stake for Johnson. Now, I don't think there was any chance Jeffries was going to meet Johnson, even if Johnson had won decisively. Jeffries probably would have met Hart if Hart had won decisively; anything else, Jeffries was retiring. Even so, the Hart fight was very important for Johnson: a solid Johnson win would have retired Jeffries and established Johnson as the obvious #1 contender. It would have been hard to justify denying Johnson a crack at the title.
Most of what I've read of Hart-Johnson inclines me to believe it was really either a draw or a non-dominant Johnson victory; I think Hart got a gift. Johnson got a bit screwed, but also screwed himself somewhat by not putting out.

Last edited by guilalah; 11-18-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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