Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in HW boxing history

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Million dollar body, 10 cent brain. And a natural born thug if tales from the old world are to be believed.

And remember, he did beat Ruiz. That decision was a sham.

I remember watching the first Bowe fight with some pretty bright friends. We were all amazed how he was beating Riddick to the jab.

When I first saw Andrew Golota working out in the gym, it was in the closing stages of his camp for the Bowe REMATCH.

I was in awe. He was the best heavyweight I've ever seen. I went home almost shaken; Convinced that his first performance against Bowe was that fight every hothead young prospect needed to eventually bloom. I thought he'd have Riddick in three, and go on to the heavyweight title.

Watching Bowe II, I realized that he was as good as he looked, but his mental shortcomings were a plague, not immaturity. I predicted Lewis would manhandle him. I didn't quite expect a 70 second annihilation, but I wasn't surprised.

[Unforgiven]

Golota was a disgrace.
I understand that professional fighters bend the rules to get an edge over the opponent, but his low-blow fests on Riddick Bowe were beyond all reason and decency.

Obviously had a bully mentality too. And I don't care what brain you give him, I can't see him surviving Lennox Lewis.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

When I first saw Andrew Golota working out in the gym, it was in the closing stages of his camp for the Bowe REMATCH.

I was in awe. He was the best heavyweight I've ever seen. I went home almost shaken; Convinced that his first performance against Bowe was that fight every hothead young prospect needed to eventually bloom. I thought he'd have Riddick in three, and go on to the heavyweight title.

Watching Bowe II, I realized that he was as good as he looked, but his mental shortcomings were a plague, not immaturity. I predicted Lewis would manhandle him. I didn't quite expect a 70 second annihilation, but I wasn't surprised.

very true, Golota had severe mental shortcomings, he was better in every way then Bowe but he had to blow it and 2X....I dont know if it was anxiety or the lack of self esteem but there were deep underlying issues.

Wasted talent

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Wlad would do Vitali dirty, and Vitali even privately agrees.

Vitali's style is predicated on three things, you understand: Range, containing his opponents, and his ability to angle any shot. He pokes and prods with his left as often as he throws a real jab, to disguise his right hand and the cover steps to his left, he leans straight back to dodge punches, because it incentivizes an opponent to keep coming, which allows him to respond with right hands or a left hook from the hip that they bear into, and he holds himself.

Wlad is faster of hand and foot, he has the far superior left jab, and he tees up with his right hand. Vitali wouldn't be able to lean out of the way; See the Wach fight, Wlad would land time and again. Vitali wouldn't be able to contain Wlad; His little brother is his physical match in the clinch, and while not as tough, is just as, if not more, dogged. We called him the octopus only half to rile him up, he's literally next to impossible to shake. Wlad's height and command of his own range would make Vitali's favored angles and his up and down way of accessing them utterly ineffective. Can't throw the hookercut, can't circle the right hand(Wlad would come over with a left hook, and used to do it in sparring so often when they were kids Vitali had a nickname for it), and wouldn't have a clear shot at the counter left hooks he loves.

So, basically, outboxing and overpowering Wlad is right out. He'd lose a stand-up scratch and peck boxing match just off of being the slower, inferior fundamentalist alone. His only approach left would be to "march forward" and fight Wlad; This romantic notion held by boxing fans that tough chinned, big hearted fighters can just decide to shrug off punishment and march forward, come hell or high water, to brawl on the inside or near mid-range, by God.

Thing is, Vitali has never been a fighter; He can be aggressive, but he's too awkward and his linear footwork sucks for a big man. In the Corrie Sanders fight, he eventually settled into doling out an ass beating because he realized his optimal range, he found a way to stay in it, and he just punched until the referee waved his arms. When he tried to come forward and attack, Sanders was drilling him very, very hard, wobbling him, and forcing him backwards. Vitali might be able to bring the action, but he can't brawl; His shoddy advances would be entirely neutralized by his brothers jab.

This is my estimation, honestly. I can't say much else, beyond giving credit where it is do and affirming that both brothers treated me very roughly. Two worst ass kickings of my life, I would estimate. Vitali is a badass, and one of the most underrated rubix cubes in all of boxing, that style is so awkward and their is no rhythm, and his timing is seriously otherwordly. Wlad is just the whole package, though. In that way, he is Lennox Lewis' true succesor, in my book.

Singing the praises of fighters who are a lot better than I am is hard, understand. Pride is involved. But the K Bros are class acts, just like Lennox Lewis was, and if they can treat me with honor, respect, and deference I'm not sure I earned from them in the ring, then by God, I'm gonna be honest about how badass I think they all are.

Great Post

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Great Post

MagnaNasakki can write!

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Being the premier fighter is thr most important thing for me when ranking a fighters worth.

A champion is a globally subjective term which has different meanings for different people. For you it's 1v2, for some it's unification for others it's merely to hold a belt. However I can always make my pick for the best fighter in the world at a given time. That's the one thing I can do regardless of era, politics or dodgey decisions.

No, choosing the premiere fighter of an era is often far more subjective than finding the true champion. Take a look at your own considerable effort in your list and we can argue all day about who was the best fighter in a division in many years not dominated by a god of war.

Given a vacant throne, the idea that the "champion" with more belts can be just as valid as the champion who came to be so after a 1 vs. 2 match up is just wrong, man. That really isn't relative or a matter of subjective opinion, unless you like chaos in your sport of choice.

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

I do respect your quest for clarity. I just can't respect an organisation referring to Briggs as a champ but not wlad. Each to their own eh?

First, the Transnational Boxing Rankings Board has no lineage, if by organization you mean that. It doesn't argue that Briggs was the true champion.

Second, what is your opinion about a superior fighter in Burley not being champ when Zivic was in fact champ? How about Lesnevich as champ over Ezzard Charles? How about Freddie Mills over Moore? Had some silly ass organization came along and handed Burley, Moore, and Charles a belt based on their own set of rigged ratings, would you dismiss the claims of Zivic, Lesnevich, and Mills since the former were obviously superior fighters...?

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

I'm sorry but I think you're plain wrong about Wlad, especially regarding his skills vs Bowe, who tends to get rather overrated based on his strong showing against Evander. Is his speed as great as a welterweight? Uh, no, but it's perfectly acceptable for a heavyweight, even compared to a relatively small heavyweight like Haye. Is he amateurish? Absolutely not.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the biggest problem I see with detractors of Wlad is that they think of him as first and foremost as a giant in the vein of Carnera, Willard and co, only with better boxing ability (if they even accept that much). Wlad isn't a giant who can box, he's a boxer who's naturally huge. That's a slight but very important difference.

Manny did for Wlad what he did for Lewis -he revamped his whole style around two things -his size, and his dentable chin.

Futch was a master trainer and if he got a hold of a fighter the way he got a hold of Bowe, for however long Bowe listened, he could be counted on to inject serious technical skill into his charge. Bowe had a skill set you almost never see among the giants. Now, you and Seamus can criticize when he used particularly skill sets (inside on Holyfield, etc) and his mistakes, and his strategy, and very rightfully his horrible diet and slothfulness, but to say that Wlad at his best is more of a technician than Bowe was at his best is questionable.

As to Primo Carnera, I think you underestimate his skill set.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by red cobra

MagnaNasakki can write!

Considering how many punches I've taken, I'm gonna take this as reassurance that I'm still in a good spot as far as retiring with my faculties

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

You find boxing welterweights a tougher assignment than heavyweights ?
That's unusual.

Mickey Walker said that heavyweights were easier. Moore did too. And Burley. Greb went up and picked on them dozens of times.

If you know what you're doing technically and have speed -and historically speaking, lighter weight divisions are more skilled than the heavies, size doesn't matter quite so much. Their shots tend to like blunt force objects but you see them coming and can get out of the way or get under. Now something like Hearns -well, that's another story all together.

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

I think most of the recent lot lack intensity rather than technique.
Looking at the Ali-Frazier-Foreman fights I see a hell of a lot of stuff that could be called "amateurish" (for want of a better word), but they make up for it in their intensity, hunger to win, making them entertaining to watch.

I see it as often-times woeful technique and bad conditioning to boot.

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

How do you define a technician ?

I'd say Wlad shows more "skill" than Bowe, but maybe not as many "skills".
If a fighter can use a limited amount of techniques and stick to the same formula over and over with great success by making the right moves at the right moment and dictating pace and distance etc. that is a demonstration of GREAT SKILL, or ring generalship.

Not to nit-pick but it's ring generalship.

By my way of thinking, a fighter who cannot fight inside isn't a technician. One who can, probably is. It's a rule of thumb that rarely fails because it's very difficult inside and takes an awful lot of skill to manuever there, avoid shots, and land your own. There are not only two fists, but elbows to watch out for, knees, the head, and it's hard to see in there because your head is low and you have to go on muscle memory and 'feel.'

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

When I first saw Andrew Golota working out in the gym, it was in the closing stages of his camp for the Bowe REMATCH.

I was in awe. He was the best heavyweight I've ever seen. I went home almost shaken; Convinced that his first performance against Bowe was that fight every hothead young prospect needed to eventually bloom. I thought he'd have Riddick in three, and go on to the heavyweight title.

Thank you. I was feeling alone in the woild!

[Stonehands89]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

You're missing the point stoney. The racket is neither here nor there.

The belts have prestige, when a man hold the belt he calls himself a champion. He claims to be a champion.

A belt is a title claim. The organisations might be corrupt but the fighters strive to hold them belts and whilst that prestige remains, so must their importance.

No -the prestige those belts are accorded comes not from the fighters' outlook on them, but from the media. If the media ever decides to stop intellectually financing them, the prestige of the belts will diminish exponentially and the fighters will begin to resent being extorted for sanctioning fees for something that is ignored, that has zero prestige.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

Thank you. I was feeling alone in the woild!

I was being looked at to fight the guy in a year or two; It was sobering.

Nothing like getting a look at a dude who is looking like a monster in sparring and on the bags, then getting told by a handler they'd like to make the match. My eyebrows molded to my hairline, and I went home almost queasy at the thought of challenging Golota for title or something crazy like that.

Then, I sat through the rematch, live, and watched him erase himself from relevance over the next couple of years. Funny how the fight game works.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

No, choosing the premiere fighter of an era is often far more subjective than finding the true champion. Take a look at your own considerable effort in your list and we can argue all day about who was the best fighter in a division in many years not dominated by a god of war.

Given a vacant throne, the idea that the "champion" with more belts can be just as valid as the champion who came to be so after a 1 vs. 2 match up is just wrong, man. That really isn't relative or a matter of subjective opinion, unless you like chaos in your sport of choice.


First, the Transnational Boxing Rankings Board has no lineage, if by organization you mean that. It doesn't argue that Briggs was the true champion.

Second, what is your opinion about a superior fighter in Burley not being champ when Zivic was in fact champ? How about Lesnevich as champ over Ezzard Charles? How about Freddie Mills over Moore? Had some silly ass organization came along and handed Burley, Moore, and Charles a belt based on their own set of rigged ratings, would you dismiss the claims of Zivic, Lesnevich, and Mills since the former were obviously superior fighters...?

Well what you say is true in a sense but I mean that for me personally I can always select the best at any one time regardless of which belt they wear. Many won't agree but from my point of view it's consistent all the way through.

Take Floyd at lmw, he's already beaten cotto clearly yet would have to do so again to take your throne.

My bad with the board. Apologies.

Well take lesnevic, he lost to bivins a couple of pounds above the limit, he lost his claim as the best lhw in the world at that point.

Burley, despite twice beating zivic never got his shot at Armstrong and the way zivic twice beat him underlined his position.

The way i see it, no claims need dismissing. The fighters live and die for those belts. It's more about which of the claimants a rate number 1. For instance Igarashi at flyweight is about to lose his premiere status when the winner of viloria and Marquez is announced.

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

He fought quite short against Haye.

That's because he had trouble connecting. Haye can get pretty low himself... Today he fights out of a crouch not by habit like he used to, but by necessity.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Stonehands89

No -the prestige those belts are accorded comes not from the fighters' outlook on them, but from the media. If the media ever decides to stop intellectually financing them, the prestige of the belts will diminish exponentially and the fighters will begin to resent being extorted for sanctioning fees for something that is ignored, that has zero prestige.

on this point i wholly agree. I hope the media dismisses as much as you do.