Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-16-2012, 01:36 PM   #31
Lord Tywin
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 797
vCash: 500
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
So many people and so many rumors that from slight favorite a week or more before the fight LaMotta only got down to even or 5-to-6 underdog the day before the fight? Were they so fed up with such rumors that they didn't believe them anymore, perhaps?

Whatever Senya, just keep on ignoring what everyone else knew. Ali Silvani never managed another fighter again after this fight because it left such a bad taste in his mouth. He stated after the fact that he didnt know of the fix but knew something was wrong and knew during the fight that LaMotta was not trying.
Lord Tywin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-16-2012, 01:39 PM   #32
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,147
vCash: 1000
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
So many people and so many rumors that from slight favorite a week or more before the fight LaMotta only got down to even or 5-to-6 underdog the day before the fight? Were they so fed up with such rumors that they didn't believe them anymore, perhaps?
The odds went to 3-1 on the afternoon of the fight and the bookmakers stopped taking Fox money at that point.
Unforgiven is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 01:41 PM   #33
Lord Tywin
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 797
vCash: 500
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
Billy Fox didn't accept such a thing. He said he didn't know anything about LaMotta fight being a fix, he heard the rumors too, but he had no insight whether they were true or not.

People accepted that Willie Pep had won a round without throwing a punch too. Or that Sam McVea - Joe Jeannette fight involved tens of knockdowns. Had been believing in these things for decades, many still do.

Billy Fox did to accept it! He stated that every where he went people were saying it was fix, everyone, he stated he didnt want to believe but after a while he did. He ended that part of the interview saying, and Im paraphrasing: "why did he (Palermo) have to do that to me, why coudnt it have happened to someone else."

In fact he stated that before LaMotta was bought off Palermo told him he was going to try to fix it by buying off the referee. I guess Fox lied about that too?

He stated that after the LaMotta fight he was so despondent that his career went off the rails (nevermind that it also coincided with Palermo dumping him after his loss to Lesnevich).

If you are going to sit here keep denying that these interviews and the like took place then whats the point? You believe what you want and wont be swayed and deny any evidence to the contrary. So thats that. Have fun in fantasy land.

Last edited by Lord Tywin; 11-16-2012 at 02:00 PM.
Lord Tywin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 01:58 PM   #34
Lord Tywin
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 797
vCash: 500
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Here is an excerpt of the Kefauver hearings:

LaMotta: "I recieved an offer of $100,000 to lose to Billy Fox... which I refused. I said I was only interested in a championship fight. And Uh, it said it could be arranged, a championship fight might be arranged. Well, thats all I heard for about a couple of weeks and while in training I hurt myself and I went to a doctor and doctor examined me, took x rays and found out I had a ruptured spleen and said I couldnt possibly fight... but i thought i could... but toward the end when i realized that i couldnt possibly win i uh... i uh... said I would lose to Billy Fox if I was guaranteed a championship fight."


Now, do you want to deny he said anything about his spleen? Whats that about your great research background? If anything it sounds like LaMotta used the spleen to deflect criticism of the fix, not as an excuse for the loss, or the fix as an excuse for the loss.

Either way the testimony he gave was damning both to himself and the fight establishment. He certainly didnt benefit in any way from it so the idea that he did it to save face after a loss is pretty ludicrous.

He also makes it clear that he wasnt offered $100,000 and a championship. He refused the $100,000 in favor of the championship. So another of your quibbles is now gone.
Lord Tywin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 02:05 PM   #35
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,616
vCash: 1210
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

You can find plenty of people who were at ringside who expressed their opinion that LaMotta fought badly, but honestly. Including LaMotta himself, of course. There was a rumor that Silvani and Jake's father confered with Palermo before the fight. Must have been true. Silvani never managed anyone again? Big deal! Who else did he managed and for how long, other than LaMotta for a short time (not really being a manager per se, only called as such) and Mauriello while the latter's manager was in the army?
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 02:20 PM   #36
Lord Tywin
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 797
vCash: 500
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Denial is not just a river in Egypt...
Lord Tywin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 02:35 PM   #37
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,616
vCash: 1210
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

This is word play. Accepting and believing are not the same things, per se. But I don't want to go there. The fact is Fox had no insight knowledge, and his manager swore on his wife and children there was no fix. So you can't use Billy Fox's testimony, whether it was a fix or not. He didn't know.

The injury didn't get into several NY newspapers and wire reports I've read about the 1960 investigation. That's why I asked for your source that it was mentioned. Did I deny he never had done such a thing when I asked your twice or thrice about that?

"Toward the end" is when? Toward the end of the fight?

Ok, you made me dig out my copy of raging bull.

Chapter 18.

So Joey was going after the Fox fight, and one day I was at the gym, lacing on my shoes in my room, and the door opened and there was Salvy with that goddamned toothpick of his. Just instinctively my hands went into fists.

"Jesus Christ," I said, "am I gonna have you on my ass for the rest of my life?"

He took the toothpick out and held his hands out in front of him. "Now, take it easy, Jake," he whined. "Why are you always givin' me a hard time. You know I'm just the messenger boy as far as you're concerned. I just got one thing to say to you, but it's important. It's important for you, not for me...."

So I stood straight, but my hands were still fists.

"Okay, okay," Salvy said. "Jesus, does everything have to be a torture test with you? What I came to tell you--you can have a championship fight."

I didn't believe him. Who would send Salvy with a message like that? "Aw, blow," I said. "Whaddaya mean, you rat bastard? How would you know, anyway? Who'd tell you?"

I guess he sensed I wasn't going to slap him around.

"Look, Jake, this is different," he said. "Siddown, huh? Siddown?"

What did I have to lose? I sat down. "So what's different this time?"

He kind of half-laughed and let out his breath. Then he went back to the door of the room and looked out, and he stepped back and stood where he could see if there was anyone coming. "This is what's different," he said. "You get a crack at the title... and a hundred grand besides... if you dump to Fox."

You know, as long as you live, you can't keep up with the mind of the good, ordinary, run-of-the-mill thief. If this Fox is so good--forty-three straight knockouts, remember, and he's a light heavy--what am I gonna get a hundred Gs for dumping for? And if he ain't that good, what is the mob building him up for?"
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 02:48 PM   #38
Lord Tywin
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 797
vCash: 500
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Im going by what was testified, not by a book that had portions fictionalized with the hopes of a movie deal down the road by Pete Savage.

If you cant use Fox's testimony then you cant accept that Palermo swore on his wife and kids it wasnt fixed because that came from Fox, who in the same instance mentions that Palermo was trying to fix it and insinuates that he didnt believe Palermo when he swore such. Gee imagine that, a gangster who would lie.

Exactly, the injury didnt get into the reports you read, so fundamentally your argument is flawed from the start by the limitations of your research.

Fox himself even admits that Jake pulled his punches in the fight, as was mentioned by several in the press and stated that several of his fights which were fixed he had a "feeling" about that as a fighter you just "knew" and this was one of those.

Silvani said the exact same thing. He had no prior knowledge of the fix but once the fight started it just wasnt right.

But lets disregard all of these experts involved, all of the interviews of first hand people, all of the testimony, all of the circumstantial evidence, and only pay attention to the few wire reports I can scrape together in Russia.

Good luck with that.
Lord Tywin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 03:07 PM   #39
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,616
vCash: 1210
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

You obviously are lacking in experience of historical research. I warned you before about first-hand accounts not being the same thing as primary sources. First-hand accounts tend to differ in details, they say one thing, then they say a different thing. He repeated it twice that he was offered both things, and he explains it further in the later part of the same chapter. Why would he fictionalize it and then try to explain in detail why he thought they offered him both the money and the title.

I said YOU can't use Fox's testimony as evidence. He admitted he didn't know about the fix until he saw the newspaper headlines the next day, and he got no confirmation of a fix from anyone who could be involved in it.

An injury is a pretty minor detail in the general scheme. It doesn't make an argument fundamentally flawed, when I base my arguments mostly on primary sources from 1947-1948 and point out that the 1960 investigation was flawed in the way it was conducted. Pick somebody else to take on with such weak arguments.

Fox admitted he didn't know what Jake was trying to do. When you have a spleen injury and you have just been punched to the body hard, the pain sometimes gets too much, you start a move and then you decide to abandon the idea. Although not the same kind of injuries as that, but it happened to me many times, you think to do something, but the muscle injury gets in the way and you drop your hands with a grimace of pain. A perfect explanation why Jake wasn't punching back as often as he was used to.

Silvani said his opinion, he had no information either, whether it was a fix or not. How would he know if he weren't involved with mafia before that, whether it was right or not. All he could do was his fighter not doing his best. I'm pretty sure he's being kind to Jake though, as he could not have no knowledge about the injury, it happened a month before the Fox bout, and Silvani was his trainer and was with his in the gym, and perfectly knew Jake wasn't right. But let's leave the old man alone.

Well, tell me then, which next-day and the following days reports about the investigation in 1947 have you read? If I only had access to wire reports, in your opinion, you must be a wealth of knowledge yourself.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 03:23 PM   #40
john garfield
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,914
vCash: 1000
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
You obviously are lacking in experience of historical research. I warned you before about first-hand accounts not being the same thing as primary sources. First-hand accounts tend to differ in details, they say one thing, then they say a different thing. He repeated it twice that he was offered both things, and he explains it further in the later part of the same chapter. Why would he fictionalize it and then try to explain in detail why he thought they offered him both the money and the title.

I said YOU can't use Fox's testimony as evidence. He admitted he didn't know about the fix until he saw the newspaper headlines the next day, and he got no confirmation of a fix from anyone who could be involved in it.

An injury is a pretty minor detail in the general scheme. It doesn't make an argument fundamentally flawed, when I base my arguments mostly on primary sources from 1947-1948 and point out that the 1960 investigation was flawed in the way it was conducted. Pick somebody else to take on with such weak arguments.

Fox admitted he didn't know what Jake was trying to do. When you have a spleen injury and you have just been punched to the body hard, the pain sometimes gets too much, you start a move and then you decide to abandon the idea. Although not the same kind of injuries as that, but it happened to me many times, you think to do something, but the muscle injury gets in the way and you drop your hands with a grimace of pain. A perfect explanation why Jake wasn't punching back as often as he was used to.

Silvani said his opinion, he had no information either, whether it was a fix or not. How would he know if he weren't involved with mafia before that, whether it was right or not. All he could do was his fighter not doing his best. I'm pretty sure he's being kind to Jake though, as he could not have no knowledge about the injury, it happened a month before the Fox bout, and Silvani was his trainer and was with his in the gym, and perfectly knew Jake wasn't right. But let's leave the old man alone.

Well, tell me then, which next-day and the following days reports about the investigation in 1947 have you read? If I only had access to wire reports, in your opinion, you must be a wealth of knowledge yourself.
I remember you going on about this when the thread first went up, S13.

Always wondered why you took such a scholarly interest in this one subject.

I've gone on record feeling Jake went in the water for the match, but you make a strong case otherwise, 'n have stuck to your guns. Have ta admire ya for that.
john garfield is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 03:39 PM   #41
Lord Tywin
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 797
vCash: 500
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
You obviously are lacking in experience of historical research. I warned you before about first-hand accounts not being the same thing as primary sources. First-hand accounts tend to differ in details, they say one thing, then they say a different thing. He repeated it twice that he was offered both things, and he explains it further in the later part of the same chapter. Why would he fictionalize it and then try to explain in detail why he thought they offered him both the money and the title.

I said YOU can't use Fox's testimony as evidence. He admitted he didn't know about the fix until he saw the newspaper headlines the next day, and he got no confirmation of a fix from anyone who could be involved in it.

An injury is a pretty minor detail in the general scheme. It doesn't make an argument fundamentally flawed, when I base my arguments mostly on primary sources from 1947-1948 and point out that the 1960 investigation was flawed in the way it was conducted. Pick somebody else to take on with such weak arguments.

Fox admitted he didn't know what Jake was trying to do. When you have a spleen injury and you have just been punched to the body hard, the pain sometimes gets too much, you start a move and then you decide to abandon the idea. Although not the same kind of injuries as that, but it happened to me many times, you think to do something, but the muscle injury gets in the way and you drop your hands with a grimace of pain. A perfect explanation why Jake wasn't punching back as often as he was used to.

Silvani said his opinion, he had no information either, whether it was a fix or not. How would he know if he weren't involved with mafia before that, whether it was right or not. All he could do was his fighter not doing his best. I'm pretty sure he's being kind to Jake though, as he could not have no knowledge about the injury, it happened a month before the Fox bout, and Silvani was his trainer and was with his in the gym, and perfectly knew Jake wasn't right. But let's leave the old man alone.

Well, tell me then, which next-day and the following days reports about the investigation in 1947 have you read? If I only had access to wire reports, in your opinion, you must be a wealth of knowledge yourself.
This coming from a guy who has now been proven wrong twice in one day vis a vis his infallible sources.

Like I said about denial...


Youve said:

"The report of the fight contradicts LaMotta's words that he was not punching back."

Wrong, you even refuted your own statement in your next post: "Having an injury certainly explains relative lack of LaMotta's rushing/punching style a lot better than a fix."

"LaMotta's brother up until now (when there's no danger whatsoever of a revenge from the mafia) still hasn't confirmed that he arranged a fix."

Wrong, You obviously didnt even know Joey had been dead 21 years.


"Give me exact date and newspaper in June 1960 where the injury is mentioned?"

Dont pretend you werent trying to insinuate that I had falsified that. Otherwise why even bring it up. You obviously had no knowledge it was mentioned at the hearing. Especially after you once again questioned it:

"He discusses it during the hearing in June 1960? Do you have a link?"

Proven wrong once again.

"The odds changed to 3-to-1, wow, mafia won a lot of money by betting on the favorite?"

Shows an obvious lack of understanding of how betting works.

"LaMotta was a ranked middleweight. By beating him Fox didn't gain much. He wasn't about to lose his rankings or be denied another chance with the champion."

Wrong, as stated above on how the bout was promoted.

"LaMotta had a reputation, but not a very big one at the time, not big enough, and not at light heavyweight, to be worth an offer of $100,000 to throw a fight."

Wrong

Billy Fox didn't accept such a thing.

Wrong

"He admitted he didn't know about the fix until he saw the newspaper headlines the next day, and he got no confirmation of a fix from anyone who could be involved in it."

Except for the fact that he admitted that Palermo was trying to fix the fight in his favor before hand. It doesnt take a genius or a big leap to realize that where there is smoke there is fire.
Lord Tywin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 03:49 PM   #42
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,616
vCash: 1210
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Word 'relative' means exactly that. Nobody contradicted anybody.

Not wrong. I didn't know that he died, but the fact remains, he hasn't confirmed it was a fix.

I asked a very clear question, wanting to hear your source. Proven wrong, but on a minor point that doesn't change much.

Even Jake himself in his bio doesn't fully understand what they were supposed to get for their offer of $100K and a title bout. They couldn't win so much money on betting (especially the many bookmakers stopped taking bets on Fox). Then what? Waiting for your version. Not to mention your lack of understanding of last-day betting.

Correct, as even Jake himself admitted not fully understanding what they were going to get if he lays down to Fox. The bout wasn't very big, relatively, of course, as compared to real big, anticipated bouts.

He admitted Palermo suggesting to bribe a referee. That's not fixing a fight, the referee wasn't going to knock LaMotta out with a baseball bat. Besides, if I recall correctly, the referee was chosen shortly before the fight, and not when it was only scheduled/discussed.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 05:10 PM   #43
Lord Tywin
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 797
vCash: 500
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Hey did you all hear that? Trying to bribe officials is not in itself indicative of trying to fix a fight.

Im sure Don King and Bob Arum would be glad to have Senya on their jury any time.
Lord Tywin is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 05:36 PM   #44
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,147
vCash: 1000
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

I wonder if any fights were ever fixed.
Unforgiven is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 05:40 PM   #45
SuzieQ49
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Martha's Vineyard
Posts: 13,062
vCash: 1000
Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Raging Bull has the best depiction of the fight
SuzieQ49 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013