Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

[RockyJim]

Shook Sonny's hand when he was training for the 2nd Clay/Ali fight in 1964 in Plymouth Ma.

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by RockyJim

Shook Sonny's hand when he was training for the 2nd Clay/Ali fight in 1964 in Plymouth Ma.

White Cliffs Country Club, Plymouth, Massachusetts

Sonny opened up camp on October 26, 1964, in preparation
for the November 16th bout.

Rocky Jim, wasn't Sonny in great physical condition when he arrived.

I met Lee Williams, one his sparring partners up there.

[HOUDINI]

By all accounts Sonny was in the shape of his life prior to the fight being postponed. Got into that great of shape knowing he was going in the tank? Listons wife stated she knew nothing of any fix and if Sonny made a ton of money off a dive she never saw it. Cus Damato was at ringside for the fight and stated that Liston was cleanly koed by a punch he did not see coming. Ali beat Liston easily in fight 1. No need to fix a second fight. Liston was that much older and Ali was that much better. Classic example of an up in coming all time great outfighting a very much aging champion.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

By all accounts Sonny was in the shape of his life prior to the fight being postponed. Got into that great of shape knowing he was going in the tank? Listons wife stated she knew nothing of any fix and if Sonny made a ton of money off a dive she never saw it. Cus Damato was at ringside for the fight and stated that Liston was cleanly koed by a punch he did not see coming. Ali beat Liston easily in fight 1. No need to fix a second fight. Liston was that much older and Ali was that much better. Classic example of an up in coming all time great outfighting a very much aging champion.

Joe Louis, Gene Tunney, Floyd Patterson and George Chuvalo were all at ringside and said it was definitely a dive.

I agree with their analyses.

[HOUDINI]

Damato, Fleischer, Dundee and a host of others disagree. In fact the fight WAS investigated...did you know that? Result...no evidence of a fix whatsoever. Add to this the fight was broken down frame by frame looking for evidence that it was fixed....want to know the conclusion? Liston was koed by a punch he never saw coming as he was stepping forward. You can yell conspiracy all you want but conspiracies are for the uneducated. Fight was investigated both formally and technically and the conclusions were as described.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Damato, Fleischer, Dundee and a host of others disagree. In fact the fight WAS investigated...did you know that? Result...no evidence of a fix whatsoever. Add to this the fight was broken down frame by frame looking for evidence that it was fixed....want to know the conclusion? Liston was koed by a punch he never saw coming as he was stepping forward. You can yell conspiracy all you want but conspiracies are for the uneducated. Fight was investigated both formally and technically and the conclusions were as described.

I don't believe you.
How can a fix be detected by breaking the film down frame by frame? It can't be.

The main thing that proves you don't know what you're saying is this:

Liston was koed by a punch he never saw coming as he was stepping forward

How do you know whether he saw it coming or not? You don't.

Liston wasn't KO'd. To be KO'd a man has to be down for a count of 10. There was no count. At most, he was knocked down. Walcott stopped the fight in error.

I doubt if you've seen the fight from what you write. Go watch it. You can find it on YouTube.

[groove]

good point. why would liston get in the best shape of his life for the rematch if he was taking a dive in the first round. clown central

[Stevie G]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

By all accounts Sonny was in the shape of his life prior to the fight being postponed. Got into that great of shape knowing he was going in the tank? Listons wife stated she knew nothing of any fix and if Sonny made a ton of money off a dive she never saw it. Cus Damato was at ringside for the fight and stated that Liston was cleanly koed by a punch he did not see coming. Ali beat Liston easily in fight 1. No need to fix a second fight. Liston was that much older and Ali was that much better. Classic example of an up in coming all time great outfighting a very much aging champion.

Good post,Houdini. One of the few on this bout that contain a well balanced common sense perspective.

[Unforgiven]

Ali thought Liston took a dive, that's why he screamed at him to get up and fight.

[Senor Pepe']

Everybody take a breather here,,,,,

Sonny Liston got into excellent physical condition for the original rematch date
of November 16, 1964 - where Sonny was down to 210 lbs.

At the time when he was up at White Cliffs Country Club in Plymouth, Massachusetts.

6-weeks later, in Denver, on December 24, 1964 - a disheveled, bloated and intoxicated
Charles Liston was arrested on suspicion of driving while intoxicated.

Sonny was at 225 lbs., and thick-waisted.

The 'game' changed in early 1965, when Las Vegas wanted the next Heavyweight
Championship bout, after Clay and Liston fulfilled their contract obligations.

When Sonny was training at the Towers Inn at Dedham, Massachusetts in early-May 1965,
and later the Poland Spring House in Maine, he was in good physical shape, but not the
physical marvel he was from back in November 1964 - 6-months earlier.

James McCarter, who was one of Sonny's sparring partners, said that Sonny could barely
run 'One-Mile', and his sparring sessions were only at 3-Round intervals, with an
occasional 4 and 5 Round session.

A 'far-cry' from the 'Machine' that was seen in 'The Catskills' in the summer of 1962.

[HOUDINI]

Billb your an idiot.

The count is made by the timekeeper as well as the ref. The fight was stopped after Sonny got up because Liston was on the canvas for more than 10 seconds so yes he was in fact knocked out.

Yes the fight was officially investigated and no fix was determined. That's the official verdict. No fight in boxing history was investigated more closely than this match at least in the hwt division.

Yes the fight was analyzed frame by frame and yes those that published there findings concluded no fix and that Liston was koed by a punch he never saw coming as he was stepping foreword. In fact during this analysis it was shown that Listons lead foot as he was stepping foreword was lifted off the canvas by the force of Alis right hand.

So there is an official investigation and an expert analysis of the fight film both concluding no fix was involved. But let's hear your uneducated uninformed disbelief of the facts. Oh...once again...your an idiot.

[HOUDINI]

Article by Sports Illustrated writer from ringside...

Muhammad Ali, born Cassius Clay, retained the heavyweight championship of the world by knocking out Sonny Liston with a perfectly valid, stunning right-hand punch to the side of the head (page 4, and he won without benefit of a fix.

Although it is impossible ever to discount the possibility of a fix because of boxing's still-too-intimate connection with the underworld, there is no shred of evidence or plausibility to support the suggestion that this was anything but an honest fight, as was the previous Clay-Liston fight in Miami Beach. Today the big money is in television—not betting.

The knockout punch itself was thrown with the amazing speed that differentiates Clay from any other heavyweight. He leaned away from one of Liston's ponderous, pawing left jabs, planted his left foot solidly and whipped his right hand over Liston's left arm and into the side of Liston's jaw. The blow had so much force it lifted Liston's left foot, upon which most of his weight was resting, well off the canvas. It was also powerful enough to drop him instantly—first to his hands and knees and then over on his back. More than 17 seconds elapsed before Liston could flounder to his feet, still only partly conscious. Even some 30 seconds later, when Jersey Joe Walcott, the referee, finally stopped the fight after a wild flurry of inaccurate punches by the almost-hysterical Clay, Liston was staggering drunkenly and had to be led to his corner by Trainer Willie Reddish.

The knockout punch was only the third that the champion landed, but all of his blows were significant ones. He opened the fight by rushing across the ring and banging the surprised Liston with a hard right cross. Then, about 30 seconds before the end, he hit Liston with another strong right (see cover) that may have started Sonny's downfall.

"That shot shivered Liston," said Trainer Chicky Ferrara, who had been placed in Liston's corner by Manager Angelo Dundee to guard against a recurrence of the eye burning that had left Clay semiblind in the fifth round in Miami Beach. "He blinked his eyes three times, like he was trying to clear his head, and I looked at Willie Reddish. I could see Reddish looked sick because he knew his fighter was in trouble."

For the few qualified observers who had a clear view of the knockout punch, there was no doubt about its power. Immediately after it landed, Floyd Patterson, seated at ringside in the most advantageous position to see the blow, said, in answer to a direct question: "It was a perfect right hand." Jos� Torres, the light heavyweight champion, agreed. "A very strong right hand," he said. Indeed, for all those who had a good view of the punch—and, unfortunately, there could not have been more than 1,200—there was never any doubt as to the stunning power of the blow. it was perfectly delivered against an opponent who was moving toward it, so that the effect was of a head-on collision.

[Senor Pepe']

HOUDINI,

Technically, Sonny Liston was never given a '10-Count' by the Referee Jersey Joe Walcott.

The fight was called 'Over' by Ring Magazine Editor, Nat Fleischer, who had no authority
under the State Boxing Commission of Maine.

Jersey Joe Walcott walked over to a screaming Fleischer, who told Mr. Walcott that
Sonny Liston was on the canvas for more the '10-Seconds'.

Jersey Joe then stopped the bout.

It was an improper ruling, because Mr. Walcott never conferred with the 'Official' Knockdown
Time-Keeper, Mr. Francis McDonough.

The bout could have been ruled a 'No Contest', which was discussed after the fight, but
I-C-P President Robert Nilon said,

'No way in hell with there ever be a third fight between these two, never. Not with me
as President of I-C-P.'

[BillB]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Billb your an idiot.

The count is made by the timekeeper as well as the ref. The fight was stopped after Sonny got up because Liston was on the canvas for more than 10 seconds so yes he was in fact knocked out.

Yes the fight was officially investigated and no fix was determined. That's the official verdict. No fight in boxing history was investigated more closely than this match at least in the hwt division.

Yes the fight was analyzed frame by frame and yes those that published there findings concluded no fix and that Liston was koed by a punch he never saw coming as he was stepping foreword. In fact during this analysis it was shown that Listons lead foot as he was stepping foreword was lifted off the canvas by the force of Alis right hand.

So there is an official investigation and an expert analysis of the fight film both concluding no fix was involved. But let's hear your uneducated uninformed disbelief of the facts. Oh...once again...your an idiot.

In any rules of boxing you want to use as a reference, the referee's count is the only one the downed fighter is expected to rely on. The referee's count is the only count that determines a knockout. The downed fighter must be given the opportunity to both hear and see the referee's count.

The referee does not start counting until the opponent retires to the farthermost neutral corner.

Walcott did not start a count on Liston, as Clay refused to go to a neutral corner.

There was no knockout because the referee never started a count.

Watch the fight and maybe you will be able to grasp what I am saying.


[URL]***********.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=94xSmDjedKw&NR=1[/URL]

[Senor Pepe']

Bill B,

Correct El Mundo,,,,,,

Jersey Joe Walcott 'never' gave Sonny Liston a count....'NEVER'

Irregardless,,,,,,Sonny was 'taking diving lessons' behind closed doors at the
Towers Inn in Dedham, Massachusetts on May 3rd, when he first arrived in
Massachusetts for the second scheduled rematch date.

As per sparring partner Everett Copeland.