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Old 11-17-2012, 08:55 AM   #16
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Great post.

I laugh at some of the self-appointed internet experts who believe they can rate trainers and second guess them.
I've probably been guilty of some of it myself though.

honest, there are quite a few posters on here that i feel are more knowledgeable and better analysts than what I've seen of some trainers

rather have flea or stoney in my corner than lou duva for instance...
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:07 AM   #17
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post
honest, there are quite a few posters on here that i feel are more knowledgeable and better analysts than what I've seen of some trainers

rather have flea or stoney in my corner than lou duva for instance...
That's entirely up to you, and that might be the right choice for you.
But I'm sure there are hundreds of fighters out there who had Lou Duva in their corner and were happy they did. Some of them very successful.

We shouldn't knock anyone's credentials to be a trainer. And, as JG pointed out, we shouldn't assume we know exactly what is or isn't being communicated in the corner between cornerman and fighter.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:18 AM   #18
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
That's entirely up to you, and that might be the right choice for you.
But I'm sure there are hundreds of fighters out there who had Lou Duva in their corner and were happy they did. Some of them very successful.

We shouldn't knock anyone's credentials to be a trainer. And, as JG pointed out, we shouldn't assume we know exactly what is or isn't being communicated in the corner between cornerman and fighter.
fair point
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by john garfield View Post
I boxed for Angie's 5th St. Amateur team in the mid '50s, 'n I'd had countless great trainers since the early '40s at Stillman's in N.Y., 'n Ang was terrific. He was terrific because he knew instinctively how to get the best from each fighter. He didn't do it by the numbers and cheer lead.

We'da followed him barefoot over broken glass.

We not only wanted to win but we wanted to win for him. The trips back to Miami after a team win are still euphoric memories. Our team was tight.

Not only was he able to look after Cassius Clay, Pastrano and all the first-rate talent coming from Cuba, he was hands on with his amateur team (knew all our names) pointing out everything we needed to fix 'n how to do it.

He was like a great jockey that knew how ta guide us down the home stretch, with just a touch on the shoulder or a look in the eye, like Whitey Bimstein or Freddie Brown.

He didn't grandstand elaborate instructions between rounds for TV or gym rats to analyze. Sure, he exhorted a fighter, but his real instruction might have been a touch on the right shoulder, meaning it was finally time to throw the lead right to the body.

When it worked, and the man caved, It was like hitting LOTTO.

So for me Angie was a terrific trainer, not a cheerleader or a towel carrier left to have his between rounds advice second guessed by websters who wanna hear it communicated the way they wanna hear it.
Excellent post, John.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:47 AM   #20
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by john garfield View Post
Think the correct chronology was, g: Ali came to 5th St. just after winning the Olympics. Ang was already working with Pastrano, and I started training at 5th St. about 1954. I trained at Stillman' from '46 to '54. Hope that clears it up.
Did you ever go pro?
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:47 AM   #21
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I know so many trainers who can't do the pads at all... They bring in "facilitators".

Dundee was a jack of all trades; His services as a manager and counseler and corner man just as important as his services in the gym.

He understood the finer points of boxing, as far as I can tell, but seemed to leave that part to the more keen, detail oriented trainers in a champions entourage, preferring a larger, more above-the-fray role, sometimes only joining camp in its later stages. A lot like Manny Steward for fighters that weren't house; Manny only trained Andy Lee, Wladimir Klitschko, and K9 Bundrage full time. Other fighters have brought him in, but he only went in the late stages and cornered for the fight.

Both men are missed. RIP.
good point but to be honest
when watching stewart working on hbo, you could clearly see him mentioning
details about distance, inside work etc
and not to mention you could see him he is very good on the pads and MUCH MORE IMPORTANLY HE PRODUCED FIGHTERS FROM HIS GYM,
and didnt just take ready made products who were top of the talent poll
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by MAG1965 View Post
he was an incredible inspiration. I don't think Lou Duva did much mitt work either, but having those two guys in your corner must have been incredible, and you always knew they would go all out for you. When a guy if fighting that means a lot.
i agree he was a great person, and an inspiration
but lou duva, interesting and what fighters did he produce???

or did he just take ready made guys like sweet pea or even golota
who were just like dundee's guys top of the talent poll
and already successful pros or olympic-world champions in amauter
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:54 AM   #23
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Most of the greatest fighters ever never even worked on the pads.
And I'm sure I've met trainers who are only experts on the pads, and out of their depth when it comes to instructing a boxer against another boxer.


i agree with you on the 2nd point 100 percent
but your first point is shaky because most of those great fighters
who didnt work on the pads fought other guys who did not work the pads.
so you that point cancels itself out

and we are talking about modern times
and almost all trainers do pads

and about your 2nd point again,
advice like
"your blowing it son"
and you gotta throw combos as generic as it gets
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:55 AM   #24
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
Angelo's brother Chris ran a boxing gym and handled many fighters. Angelo was around the gym a lot. he got his break with carmen Basilio because Basilio liked the way the Angelo wrapped his hands. nothing more.
he got the job with Ali precisely because he would not try to train Ali. He would let Ali do what he wanted to do. He got the job with Leonard primarily as a matchmaker; Leonard's amateur trainers did the bulk of the training early on.
If you think he told Leonard anything leonard didn't know in the first hearns fight, you are wrong. He handled a bunch of guys that were already set and didn't need or want somebody in the corner babbling in their ear. Ali ignored him, foreman ignored him, and so did Leonard (though he was nice enough to give him credit in his book.)
A good friend of mine, who sparred with emile griffith and traveled in liston's camp, told me that he watched Angelo for many hours in the gym and came to the conclusion that he did nothing.

interesting and seems logical
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:23 AM   #25
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

I am a pro scientist, not boxer, but I do box as an amateur many years
You may find it odd, but I think there are lots of similarities between boxing coaches and scientific mentors. There are two types of guys. Majority play teachers by paying attention on your mistakes only, who constantly play experts and critisize you. Minority guys are more patient, close their eyes on your mistakes, rather acknowledge every time you do something right. Personally, I prefer working with the second type.

By his own admission, AD was the second type: 'critisism is ok, encouragement is better". I guess this interview gives the best opinion about AD: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHHeYQhxj_M[/ame]

Those who advocate mitt work too much - at early stage it can break a fighter. With it, you will produce clones, not unique guys with talent. I seriously doubt ALi and SRL would develop their great talents if they started doing mitt work early. Also, swap mitt routines between Manny and Floyd, would this do any good? I remember Ricky Hatton hired Floyd senior and they did floyd cascades, but it did not help Ricky.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:13 PM   #26
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by NVSemin View Post
I am a pro scientist, not boxer, but I do box as an amateur many years
You may find it odd, but I think there are lots of similarities between boxing coaches and scientific mentors. There are two types of guys. Majority play teachers by paying attention on your mistakes only, who constantly play experts and critisize you. Minority guys are more patient, close their eyes on your mistakes, rather acknowledge every time you do something right. Personally, I prefer working with the second type.

By his own admission, AD was the second type: 'critisism is ok, encouragement is better". I guess this interview gives the best opinion about AD: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Those who advocate mitt work too much - at early stage it can break a fighter. With it, you will produce clones, not unique guys with talent. I seriously doubt ALi and SRL would develop their great talents if they started doing mitt work early. Also, swap mitt routines between Manny and Floyd, would this do any good? I remember Ricky Hatton hired Floyd senior and they did floyd cascades, but it did not help Ricky.

i agree with you about trainers who play expert to much and tell you that your doing everything wrong...i actually have a trainer like that, at first i was fine with it but now its ANNOYING...

but who point about mitt work was that it is one of the ways you can if a trainer knows boxing, it is just one of the ways
a trainer watching and making detailed comments about a boxer and or a technique is another way you can tell about his knowledge

dundee did not do any pad work
and again dundee doing commentry on hbo on fights
usually only made super general comments
"the kid is not jabbing"

other ways you can tell if a guy knows how to box
him showing a fighter how to do a move

or even the trainer working out himself,

again there are a million ways of seeing

i have yet to see dundee do any of these
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:42 PM   #27
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

Focus mitts are overrated, anyways.

Can produce paint by numbers fighters. I refuse to do more then 6 rounds a day. Sparring, bag work, skipping rope, and shadowboxing are all infinitely superior exercises.

I never worked with Angie, but I've not heard a bad thing about him. I think a bunch of armchair postulating is disrespectful to an obvious legend.

If Leonard gives him credit, if Ali gives him credit, he deserves credit. That is the end of it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:03 AM   #28
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

Dose it matter if Dundee ever boxed? Dose it matter if he wasn't a triditional coach?
My opinion to both questions is "no".
He clearly knew how to get the most out of his boxers. When Ali was blinded in the first Listen fight. He knew it would go away and refused to let him quit. When Hearns built a lead on Leonard. He told him "Your blowing it son". Sometimes it's the little things that matter as much as the big things.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:22 AM   #29
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Dose it matter if Dundee ever boxed? Dose it matter if he wasn't a triditional coach?
My opinion to both questions is "no".
He clearly knew how to get the most out of his boxers. When Ali was blinded in the first Listen fight. He knew it would go away and refused to let him quit. When Hearns built a lead on Leonard. He told him "Your blowing it son". Sometimes it's the little things that matter as much as the big things.
And it's not easy to do. Teddy Atlas, for example, sucks at motivating a fighter. Just, ugh. Don't get me started.

You can't just say shit. You have to say the right shit, and the context of your relationship will make it meaningful.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:40 AM   #30
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Default Re: did angelo dundee know how to box????

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Focus mitts are overrated, anyways.

Can produce paint by numbers fighters. I refuse to do more then 6 rounds a day. Sparring, bag work, skipping rope, and shadowboxing are all infinitely superior exercises.

I never worked with Angie, but I've not heard a bad thing about him. I think a bunch of armchair postulating is disrespectful to an obvious legend.

If Leonard gives him credit, if Ali gives him credit, he deserves credit. That is the end of it.


that is not the end of it

who taught leonard and ali to box??? someone else?
who watched out for the mistakes??? before and after they
were great...someone else???

who did dundee produce??? to even win a golden gloves tournament???

yes ali and leonard give him credit...do you ever hear them saying he
taught them anything????

so basically it was someone who produced them?
it was some else who did pads with them or watched for mistakes they make

and dundee gets all the credit


like a said he was a great motivator and a good guy
but a coach teaches produces fighters, and doesnt just cherry pick the best talent that is already a great boxer because of his connections
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