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Old 11-16-2012, 05:04 PM   #706
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Loved it, the respect was clear!



Good post but he makes a lot of spasticated posts, pretty sure he's a troll mate
I tend to go from very sarcastic to very serious, to half joking.
My posts often don't have any scructure.
I go from jokes to serious in a matter of a single word.
Most posts in the lounge is just trolling/ making jokes

But my dislike for Muhammad Ali is genuine.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:04 PM   #707
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Originally Posted by Aaron Contreras View Post
In case, something is misinterpreted, in anyway: whatever I post, comes with the utmost respect and contains no sarcasm. Sorry for my ignorance -- but here we go.

- I vaguely remember hearing Muay Thai fighters retire relatively early? (Primarily due to the damage on their bodies for so long.) Any truth to this?

- How are losses looked upon in the Muay Thai circuit? As in Japan, the fanbase does care too much for win/loss records. And of course, here in the states one loss can derail a prospect's entire career.

Thanks for anyone's time.
That’s one of the politest posts I’ve ever seen! I’ll try to reciprocate. I’ve written a lot about these topics already in this thread, but I’ll try to sum it up.

What you have to understand first is that these guys aren’t fighters in the sense we are familiar with in the west, where recreational interest accounts for most guys first walking into a fight gym. In Thailand most are “pushed” into it very young , maybe 8 (although I’ve seen much younger) by family who need a bit of extra income or who can’t a afford to raise their kids alone. The sport solely exists for the gamblers and these guys are viewed purely as commodities and are “owned” by their gym’s owners and handlers. They are usually purchased at a young age from small provincial gyms, brought to their new gym usually in Bangkok where they will live eat and breathe only Muay Thai until they leave in many cases maybe over a decade after they arrived. The manner in which they leave the gym largely depends on how they fight. Many leave injured, many get released after losing streaks having become a financial liability, but most get released after having repeatedly gone to war month in month out for years until finally they just have nothing left to give and are thrown on the scrap heap.

The majority of fighters are done by time they’re 22-25, having had anywhere from 100 to 300 pro fights. Many guys end up with nothing (remember there is a 50-50 split with the gym), maybe a little noodle stand on the street or a second rate karaoke bar on some back soi somewhere and they’re the semi lucky ones. Most however, become taxi drivers, go home and become farmers or gunmen in illegal casinos where a lot can wind up dead. Options are limited for a normal Thais let alone a man that’s been bred only to kick ass since he was 8! One gym I trained at did try to help by taking a % of the fighters purse and putting it in a savings account for the fighter, but I dread to think how that turned out when the gym struck hard times. The luckier ones manage to get out of the country and train abroad, which isn’t easy or secure financially, not to mention Thais aren’t great long term travellers they tend to miss home too much. The very select few of maybe only 4 fighters Somluck, Samart, Khoasai and now possibly Buakaw get regular TV work.

The exception to the above trend are the guys like Buakaw, Jomhod, Khem, Singmanee etc who have managed to get a bit more longevity out of their careers as they wind up about 70 kilos which is just right for the international MT and K-1 scene which pays well and is a much easier day at the office compared to their heydays back in Thailand in lower weight divisions when they were younger. By time these guys are fighting abroad in the west they are past their primes, but still manage to dominate.

In terms of losses on the record well, they do matter but only really from a financial point, there is little room for sentimental favourites in the cattle market of the Thai fight scene. Most fighters tend to fight for the same promoters so if they lose their payday goes down the next time and if they keep losing they probably get bumped down to a lesser stadium and so on until the gym then dumps them. Thais want to see 5 rounds of “beautiful” boxing or to translate 5 rounds of backward and forward frenetic action that allows gamblers & bookies to make lot of money, so being a KO artist can also hurt your chances of advancement up the ladder, remember it’s all about the gambling and who wants to bet against a KO specialist, where’s the thrill in that! If you box bravely and make it close people like that, but on the whole you gotta win, there’s just way too much competition out there for people to remember you unless you’re great! And if your great you’ll probably wind up fighting the same other greats of the time repeatedly, it’s not uncommon for guys to sometimes meet upwards of 6 times!

There’s loads more on this topic spread out in this thread, but here’s alink where we talk about it more in depth:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Last edited by boranbkk; 11-17-2012 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:43 PM   #708
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Originally Posted by Aaron Contreras View Post
Thanks for the info!

Does Muay Thai translate well over to boxing?
Short answer, it’s the best combat sport to crossover from. All the things that boxers spend years developing Muay Thai converts already have. They grow up in the ring, follow a pro training regime and have so many fights by time they are in their early twenties. When they turn over they are battled hardened veterans still young in years 20- 25. Most of the important basic skills they need are already in place; supreme S&C, ring smarts, the ability to read a fight, staying calm under fire and a mature fight mentality are already there. These are important skills that take years to build up and learn. The only problem for the veteran Muay Thai fighter with powerful hands is to adapt his wealth of experience to learning new movements, patterns, combos and techniques, which is tougher than it sounds.

Again this is something we’ve spoken about a lot alreadyin this thread and one of Flea’s a major loves Thai MT converts to Boxing.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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Originally Posted by dyna View Post
Ok, but that's why it was just a question.
Excuse me for my lack of knowledge.
Fair enough, we just get alot of nutjobs in here from the main looking for agro they have little respect or interest for anything other than Boxing, so when you get a post questioning the records of the world's most battle hardened warriors, you wonder where there coming from....
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:26 AM   #709
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post
Thatís one of the politest posts Iíve ever seen! Iíll try to reciprocate. Iíve written a lot about these topics already in this thread, but Iíll try to sum it up.

What you have to understand first is that these guys arenít fighters in the sense we are familiar with in the west, where recreational interest accounts for most guys first walking into a fight gym. In Thailand most are ďpushedĒ into it very young , maybe 8 (although Iíve seen much younger) by family who need a bit of extra income or who canít a afford to raise their kids alone. The sport solely exists for the gamblers and these guys are viewed purely as commodities and are ďownedĒ by their gymís owners and handlers. They are usually purchased at a young age from small provincial gyms, brought to their new gym usually in Bangkok where they will live eat and breathe only Muay Thai until they leave in many cases maybe over a decade after they arrived. The manner in which they leave the gym largely depends on how they fight. Many leave injured, many get released after losing streaks having become a financial liability, but most get released after having repeatedly gone to war month in month out for years until finally they just have nothing left to give and are thrown on the scrap heap.

The majority of fighters are done by time theyíre 22-25, having had anywhere from 100 to 300 pro fights. Many guys end up with nothing (remember there is a 50-50 split with the gym), maybe a little noodle stand on the street or a second rate karaoke bar on some back soi somewhere and theyíre the semi lucky ones. Most however, become taxi drivers, go home and become farmers or gunmen in illegal casinos where a lot can wind up dead. Options are limited for a normal Thais let alone a man thatís been bred only to kick ass since he was 8! One gym I trained at did try to help by taking a % of the fighters purse and putting it in a savings account for the fighter, but I dread to think how that turned out when the gym struck hard times. The luckier ones manage to get out of the country and train abroad, which isnít easy or secure financially, not to mention Thais arenít great long term travellers they tend to miss home too much. The very select few of maybe only 4 fighters Somluck, Samart, Khoasai and now possibly Buakaw get regular TV work.

The exception to the above trend are the guys like Buakaw, Jomhod, Khem, Singmanee etc who have managed to get a bit more longevity out of their careers as they wind up about 70 kilos which is just right for the international MT and K-1 scene which pays well and is a much easier day at the office compared to their heydays back in Thailand in lower weight divisions when they were younger. By time these guys are fighting abroad in the west they are past their primes, but still manage to dominate.

In terms of losses on the record well, they do matter but only really from a financial point, there is little room for sentimental favourites in the cattle market of the Thai fight scene. Most fighters tend to fight for the same promoters so if they lose their payday goes down the next time and if they keep losing they probably get bumped down to a lesser stadium and so on until the gym then dumps them. Thais want to see 5 rounds of ďbeautifulĒ boxing or to translate 5 rounds of backward and forward frenetic action that allows gamblers & bookies to make lot of money, so being a KO artist can also hurt your chances of advancement up the ladder, remember itís all about the gambling and who wants to bet against a KO specialist, whereís the thrill in that! If you box bravely and make it close people like that, but on the whole you gotta win, thereís just way too much competition out there for people to remember you unless youíre great! And if your great youíll probably wind up fighting the same other greats of the time repeatedly, itís not uncommon for guys to sometimes meet upwards of 6 times!

Thereís loads more on this topic spread out in this thread, but hereís alink where we talk about it more in depth:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
This post made me sad
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:32 AM   #710
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Originally Posted by Aaron Contreras View Post
Thanks for the info!

Does Muay Thai translate well over to boxing?
Yeah, sometimes makes the fighter squared up but usually technically tidy.

Or it goes the other way and they're awkward beasts. A few Ali impersonators as well, Chitalada, Sukhothai.

Check out Samart Payakaroon to see a guy who is neither.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:11 PM   #711
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post
That’s one of the politest posts I’ve ever seen! I’ll try to reciprocate. I’ve written a lot about these topics already in this thread, but I’ll try to sum it up.

What you have to understand first is that these guys aren’t fighters in the sense we are familiar with in the west, where recreational interest accounts for most guys first walking into a fight gym. In Thailand most are “pushed” into it very young , maybe 8 (although I’ve seen much younger) by family who need a bit of extra income or who can’t a afford to raise their kids alone. The sport solely exists for the gamblers and these guys are viewed purely as commodities and are “owned” by their gym’s owners and handlers. They are usually purchased at a young age from small provincial gyms, brought to their new gym usually in Bangkok where they will live eat and breathe only Muay Thai until they leave in many cases maybe over a decade after they arrived. The manner in which they leave the gym largely depends on how they fight. Many leave injured, many get released after losing streaks having become a financial liability, but most get released after having repeatedly gone to war month in month out for years until finally they just have nothing left to give and are thrown on the scrap heap.

The majority of fighters are done by time they’re 22-25, having had anywhere from 100 to 300 pro fights. Many guys end up with nothing (remember there is a 50-50 split with the gym), maybe a little noodle stand on the street or a second rate karaoke bar on some back soi somewhere and they’re the semi lucky ones. Most however, become taxi drivers, go home and become farmers or gunmen in illegal casinos where a lot can wind up dead. Options are limited for a normal Thais let alone a man that’s been bred only to kick ass since he was 8! One gym I trained at did try to help by taking a % of the fighters purse and putting it in a savings account for the fighter, but I dread to think how that turned out when the gym struck hard times. The luckier ones manage to get out of the country and train abroad, which isn’t easy or secure financially, not to mention Thais aren’t great long term travellers they tend to miss home too much. The very select few of maybe only 4 fighters Somluck, Samart, Khoasai and now possibly Buakaw get regular TV work.

The exception to the above trend are the guys like Buakaw, Jomhod, Khem, Singmanee etc who have managed to get a bit more longevity out of their careers as they wind up about 70 kilos which is just right for the international MT and K-1 scene which pays well and is a much easier day at the office compared to their heydays back in Thailand in lower weight divisions when they were younger. By time these guys are fighting abroad in the west they are past their primes, but still manage to dominate.

In terms of losses on the record well, they do matter but only really from a financial point, there is little room for sentimental favourites in the cattle market of the Thai fight scene. Most fighters tend to fight for the same promoters so if they lose their payday goes down the next time and if they keep losing they probably get bumped down to a lesser stadium and so on until the gym then dumps them. Thais want to see 5 rounds of “beautiful” boxing or to translate 5 rounds of backward and forward frenetic action that allows gamblers & bookies to make lot of money, so being a KO artist can also hurt your chances of advancement up the ladder, remember it’s all about the gambling and who wants to bet against a KO specialist, where’s the thrill in that! If you box bravely and make it close people like that, but on the whole you gotta win, there’s just way too much competition out there for people to remember you unless you’re great! And if your great you’ll probably wind up fighting the same other greats of the time repeatedly, it’s not uncommon for guys to sometimes meet upwards of 6 times!
Excellent post, thanks so much. You've really enlightened me.

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:57 PM   #712
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

This is the best thread i've seen on ESB.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:22 PM   #713
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

I enjoy it too, I have learned shit loads from this thread.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:09 PM   #714
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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I enjoy it too, I have learned shit loads from this thread.
I've wasted hours looking up fighters, that i have learnt about from this epic thread.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:49 AM   #715
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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This is the best thread i've seen on ESB.
Glad people are reading it and enjoying it!

It's an honest thread where we all post without agenda and chip in bits & bobs that've helped create this juggernaut of a thread.

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I've wasted hours looking up fighters, that i have learnt about from this epic thread.
Sounds like a perfect and valuable use of time to me!
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:51 PM   #716
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Is there a thread for best thai fighters to cross over to boxing? Or at least find the most success?
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:08 PM   #717
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Yeah, me, what d'ya wanna' know?
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:15 PM   #718
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Is there a thread for best thai fighters to cross over to boxing? Or at least find the most success?
Yeah, in this thread. In the above post where I post about moving over to boxing click on the second link then go down to the middle and you'll find some epic posts about Thai western boxers by Fleaman. Flea's knowledge on the top Thai converts to boxing is second to none.

For your own research all Thai fight rivers start with GOAT Thai warrior Samart Payakaroon. All hail the king

In MT he was a 4 weight Lumpinee champ as well as in boxing a WBC junior featherweight champ!
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:49 PM   #719
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post
Yeah, in this thread. In the above post where I post about moving over to boxing click on the second link then go down to the middle and you'll find some epic posts about Thai western boxers by Fleaman. Flea's knowledge on the top Thai converts to boxing is second to none.

For your own research all Thai fight rivers start with GOAT Thai warrior Samart Payakaroon. All hail the king

In MT he was a 4 weight Lumpinee champ as well as in boxing a WBC junior featherweight champ!

And beaten by Australia's own Jeff Fenech - don't forget that.

Sorry mate - Aussie pride and I know Jeff, had to drop that one in.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:55 PM   #720
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Yeah, Pernell Whittaker-levels of natural reflexive defence and crushing power.

Greatest Nak Muay of all time.

Apidej Sit Hirun is one of the lauded 'old school' MT legends and, although his boxrec record is likely incomplete, he didn't convert over too well. Things could've turned out very different if he bed beaten Kim at the time he fought him though.

Saensak Muangsurin, as we've discussed many times in this thread, is a peculiar case. He had an iron chin and two bags on gravel at the end of his arms, as well as limitless stamina. But he didn't even make any adjustments Boran may be able to tell you more about his stance but he's not a technician at all

Two ranked contenders in his first two fights that he decimates (check out Muangsurin KO1 Barro on YouTube) and takes the WBC title in his 3rd fight. That was in '77, and even with all the belts nowadays that's never been equalled as the quickest route to a World title. He was just a BEAST his power would be comparable to a ten stone Foreman IMO.

I'm on iPhone: Boran post your vid'
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