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Old 11-17-2012, 06:25 PM   #46
Senor Pepe'
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
It doesn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that the fight was a fix.

All you have is that you don't think the punch would have floored him legitimately. Well unless you can prove the fix you have to accept the truth.
Mr. Lufcrazy,

Forget about the punch, as it is really irrelevant. Sonny 'had to lose'.

If you follow I-C-P (Inter-Continental-Promotions) you can understand
why Sonny had to lose. Money.

Robert Nilon, was the 'money man' who called the shots. When Robert
went out to Las Vegas in August 1964 to set up the rematch, he was
told I-C-P could promote there, but not with Sonny. As Liston had way too
much baggage.

They tried to unload the fight to every major city, and everbody turned
them down, except for Boston, who eventually unloaded it anyway.

If Sonny defeated Cassius Clay in May 1965, I-C-P would have went
under, because they could not promote Liston anywhere, because every boxing
commission had yanked his boxing license.

I-C-P owned an option on Cassius Clay's next defense, where everybody
knew a Clay vs. Patterson bout in Las Vegas would do $5,000,000 in gross
receipts, netting I-C-P a big percentage.

If Sonny had won, they would have been stuck with nothing. Even the
Danish Boxing Commission would not accept Sonny Liston.

In turn, Sonny loses, and makes money as an officer with I-C-P in the
promotion of the Clay vs. Patterson bout in November 1965.

Kirk Kerkorian, a 'big wheel' in Las Vegas Business scene gives Sonny Liston a house in
Las Vegas off the 15th Fairway of the Stardust Country Club in February 1966, as part
of his buy-out.

And everybody is happy.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:34 PM   #47
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Mr. Lufcrazy,

Forget about the punch, as it is really irrelevant. Sonny 'had to lose'.

If you follow I-C-P (Inter-Continental-Promotions) you can understand
why Sonny had to lose. Money.

Robert Nilon, was the 'money man' who called the shots. When Robert
went out to Las Vegas in August 1964 to set up the rematch, he was
told I-C-P could promote there, but not with Sonny. As Liston had way too
much baggage.

They tried to unload the fight to every major city, and everbody turned
them down, except for Boston, who eventually unloaded it anyway.

If Sonny defeated Cassius Clay in May 1965, I-C-P would have went
under, because they could not promote Liston anywhere, because every boxing
commission had yanked his boxing license.

I-C-P owned an option on Cassius Clay's next defense, where everybody
knew a Clay vs. Patterson bout in Las Vegas would do $5,000,000 in gross
receipts, netting I-C-P a big percentage.

If Sonny had won, they would have been stuck with nothing. Even the
Danish Boxing Commission would not accept Sonny Liston.

In turn, Sonny loses, and makes money as an officer with I-C-P in the
promotion of the Clay vs. Patterson bout in November 1965.

Kirk Kerkorian, a 'big wheel' in Las Vegas Business scene gives Sonny Liston a house in
February 1966, as part of his buy-out.

And everybody is happy.
Even if Liston had venues over here, there were no money fights in view for him.
Johansson would not fight him. He had already beaten everyone else.
There was no one around that the fans had an interest in.

Marciano had the same problem, when he retired.

Liston decided to retire on his back with a golden parachute in the form of a big cut of Clay's next fight.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:34 PM   #48
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Bill B,

I-C-P made $1,000,000 for the Clay vs. Patterson bout.

Robert Nilon pulled almost $500,000 for himself in the Cassius Clay vs. Floyd Patterson bout.

The man was a 'money genius'.

He actually told Sonny, the Championship is worth nothing to you.

Later, Robert Nilon said, 'If Sonny wins the rematch, he will get
100% of nothing after that, because no commission will license him'.

'If he loses, he will get 45% of I-C-P's net take for Clay's next defense. That buys alot
of Cadillac's which Sonny has been accustomed too.'

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 11-17-2012 at 07:50 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:23 PM   #49
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Official investigation by NY state boxing commission found no evidence of a fix. NEXT!
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:29 PM   #50
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Official investigation by NY state boxing commission found no evidence of a fix. NEXT!
I don't believe you.

Source.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:40 PM   #51
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Absolutely. I trust the NYBC with all my little innocent heart just like HOUDINI. Why would honorable men in suits and ties possibly overlook any crime, corruption, or graft?

Boxing is a completely pure sport full of honest, virtuous, and pure hearted individuals who would never, never, never, never do anything shady to maximize profits and further their own business interests. In fact, Sonny Liston himself became purified in heart the moment he became an official "professional boxer" and completely repented of a life of hustling and lying as did his handlers and managers.

And when did any State Commission ever find proof of a fix? See, further proof that there has never ever, ever, ever been one instance where a fighter took a dive, mobsters paid off an opponent, or judges took an envelope on the sly to deliver a favorable scorecard.

I'm so glad the ESB "Genius" came along to grace us with his brilliance.

Now that you're done, HOUDINI, I think the adults can return to discussing this subject.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:52 PM   #52
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

D9 Garrard,,,,,,,,

Man,,,,,,,I love your additions to this thread...You Are Genius.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:06 PM   #53
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
D9 Garrard,,,,,,,,

Man,,,,,,,I love your additions to this thread...You Are Genius.
Yeah, because he buys into your lies hook line and sinker. That is assuming you two arent the same person to begin with
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:13 PM   #54
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

NY state boxing commission found that the Lamotta/Fox fight was fixed and took appropriate action. NY State boxing commission also investigated the Ali Liston second fight and found no evidence of a fix. An independant technical analysis of the fight film came to the conclusion that Liston was legitimately knocked out. The right hand Ali landed was hard enough to lift Listons lead food off the canvas. That same foot he was stepping forward with at the same time. Anything else you guys want to make up or are you willing to stick to the facts?
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:34 PM   #55
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

New York State Athletic Association Commission - Chairman was Edwin B. Dooley,

The same guy who banned Sonny Liston from ever participating in a bout
in New York because of his ties to the mob underworld underlings.

Mr. Dooley denied Sonny Liston a boxing license back on April 26, 1962.

As per Mr. Dooley, 'As long as I am the Chairman of the NYSAC, Sonny Liston
will never have a professional boxing match in the State of New York, period.'

And he found nothing wrong with the bout in Lewiston, Maine.

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 11-17-2012 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:11 PM   #56
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Oh by the way a Florida state investigation of fight one found no evidence of a fix either.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:48 PM   #57
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

I'm not Pepe', nor do I always agree with his positions on Ali.

If you remember, Tywin, I actually took Pepe' to task and specifically challenged his assumptions and requested he clarify his root beliefs on a previous Ali thread. Typical of you to attempt to simplify everything to black and white and display a complete inability to present anything approaching a logical argument or even bother to read my replies in past threads. After all, I had to argue your points FOR YOU against Pepe' due to your lack of intellectual capacity.

You and HOUDINI are essentially "board trolls" who run around behind Pepe' like frightened little school girls desperately defending the purity of "boxing history" for fear that your fragile sense of reality will be dislodged. For God's Sake, why are you two braindeads so threatened by his posts? Seriously, just bypass his threads if you disagree with him. You won't change his mind or anybody else's and you both are just coming off as insecure, whiny dimwits.

As for me, I believe the Liston-Clay fights were fixes not because I think Clay/Ali was a fraud as a fighter (I think Pepe' believes he was...), but because I understand the logical and financial motivation for Liston and his camp to do so. I spent enough time around boxing, and understand the nature of business and politics, to not live in some fairy tale world where presented and accepted history is actually a truthful version.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:14 AM   #58
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

SI article continued.......

There was a wonderful irrationality to Walcott's action, which was reflected in everything he said later. He stopped the fight, he admitted, only after he had been informed by Fleischer, who had no official connection with the match, that the count had reached 12. But moments earlier he obviously had been prepared to allow the bout to continue, possibly on the theory that since Clay had not gone to a neutral corner there had not been a count of 10. Immediately after he stopped the bout, however, Walcott told a reporter: "It didn't make any difference if I counted or not. I could have counted to 24. Liston was in a dream world, and the only thing that could have happened was that he'd be seriously hurt."

Watching Liston after the end, it was perfectly clear he had been badly—if not seriously—hurt. He stood vaguely for a moment, then staggered two steps backward as Reddish approached him and led him to his corner. It was about then, with the ring rapidly filling up with uninvited characters, that George Chuvalo, the Canadian heavyweight champion who had hoped to fight Liston if Sonny won, climbed through the ropes and shoved Clay, yelling, "Fix!" He was restrained, but later he said that he had seen Liston's eyes while the challenger was on the floor, and he knew that he was not in bad shape. "His eyes were darting from side to side like this," he said, darting his eyes from side to side. "When a lighter is hurt his eyes roll up."

In fact, Chuvalo was giving unwitting testimony to the power of the blow.

"Chuvalo is wrong," said Dr. Carroll L. Witten, former Kentucky State Boxing Commissioner, who has studied the reactions of knocked-out fighters. "The side-to-side movement of eyes is commonly associated with temporary unconsciousness and is one of the first things you look for. It is called nystagmus."

About half an hour after the fight, sitting on a training table and dressed in blue jeans, a gray sweat shirt and heavy brogans, Liston offered his own testimony.

"I didn't think he could hit that hard," he said, oddly cheerful. "But I couldn't pick up the count. I think," he added, apparently unaware that it was he who first resumed fighting after the knockdown, "I could have continued if I had picked up the count."

Had the fight been permitted to continue, it would have done Liston small good; Clay was in control from the opening surprise punch, and in all likelihood would have scored a second knockout.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:25 AM   #59
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

I've been studying hwt boxing history since 1970. Truth is the truth. Speculation and outright lies are something totally different. There is solid evidence that both fights were totally legit. Investigations were made and the conclusion of all of these is that there was no evidence of a fix. Now if you would rather believe speculation and unrelated events thrown together ignoring the facts so be it. Just remember....the right hand Ali hit Liston with was strong enough to lift his lead front foot, the foot he was stepping forward with, off from the canvas. Patterson, Torres, Fleischer, Walcott and many others felt Liston was koed. The observation of Chuvalo that Listons eyes were darting side to side while on the canvas also indicates Liston was severely hurt.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:25 AM   #60
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
NY state boxing commission found that the Lamotta/Fox fight was fixed and took appropriate action.
Are you sure of this ?

On another recent/current thread I read that two investigations in 1947 came back with 'no fix' on LaMotta v Fox.

Ironically, Lord Tywin is arguing well with Senya13 on that thread that fixes do exist and that Fox-LaMotta was fixed.
I suppose different rules apply when Ali is involved.
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