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Old 11-18-2012, 02:31 AM   #61
Unforgiven
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Just remember....the right hand Ali hit Liston with was strong enough to lift his lead front foot, the foot he was stepping forward with, off from the canvas.
This is not true. If you look at the pattern of Liston's footwork he always took the big long step, followed by a short little stutter-hop.
He does exactly the same thing, and then decides to go down.

It's grasping at straws to claim that Ali's punch caused the little stutter step, because Liston did that every time after the long step.

Watch the whole 'fight' again. Liston lifts his foot in a short step after every long step he makes with that front foot.

But I know you're just repeating something you read elsewhere anyway.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:15 AM   #62
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

it was a great counter punch and too fast for most to see. so let's see this beautiful pin point shot in slow motion. liston foot comes off the floor so his balance has gone and he goes down. legit knockdown but sonny quits for the 2nd time once he's down - the rolling around seems a bit too much like play acting. look at the rebound shock of the punch back to ali's pecs - perfect timed shot.

BORKED
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:30 AM   #63
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Still no proof of a fix.

If anyone can prove it, feel free.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:18 AM   #64
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Still no proof of a fix.
There's loads.

Quote:
If anyone can prove it, feel free.
very different matter.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:08 AM   #65
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Sonny was going down, and quick.

He tried to make it look as good as he possibly could, which was typically 'bad'.

It is unsure whether Cassius Clay knew the complete fix was in on Sonny's side,
but he could not have been completely in the dark on this one.

Simply put, Robert Nilon (before the bout) was pouring a bunch of money to Sonny
to keep him going, because most of the money regarding the first Liston vs. Clay bout
was tied up with the IRS, and other funds with Bill McDonald had not been delivered.

Father John Murphy out in Denver, confirmed that Sonny not only borrowed alot of
money from friends, he was out of 'dough', because he went through money like running water.

Jack Nilon, in August 1964, gave up being Sonny's manager, because he was going
broke supporting him.

The only way the Nilon Brothers and I-C-P could recoup their money, was to promote
a big fight. The Clay vs. Liston II bout would get them a decent profit, after spending a
'ton' on Sonny for the past 3 years.

But, their big windfall would come on the Clay vs. Patterson bout in Las Vegas.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:38 AM   #66
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

The lead foot lift from that punch is well documented. You have that SI article and formal frame by frame analysis of the fight. If you want to throw all that out, dont know why you would unless you have other motives then just Chuvalos observation that Listons eyes were shifting side to side when he was down shows that he was potentially very hurt. If your that much an Ali hater and want to throw all of this out then you have the formal NY state investigation of the second fight AND the formal investigation of the first fight my Florida State. BOTH concluded there was no evidence of a fix. Now if you then want to ignore all of this evidence then I would suggest the issue is with YOU. Finally just look at the historic scope of the fights. Ali as we all know went on to be, to this very day, rated by most as the best hwt champion ever. Everyone lists him at the very least in the top 2. Here he is fighting an old Liston after soundly beating him in Miami.....why fix the fight? Why would Liston train sooo very hard to get in shape for the fight if the fix was in? The truth is looking back on both fights it was the classic example of a young future ATG fighting the old champion and beating him soundly. Ali was the one on the way up and Liston was certainly on his way down. By what magical method was Lston going to catch Ali and knock him out in either fight? If was quite obvious from the opening bell of both fights that Ali was just too quick for Liston. He was falling all over himself trying to land a clean shot.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:58 AM   #67
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Ali thought Liston took a dive, that's why he screamed at him to get up and fight.
Absolutely spot on that's something that people ignore. Whatever did happen certainly didn't involve Ali.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:04 AM   #68
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Love the way, Sonny put out both hands when he was falling to the canvas.

Don't want to get hurt, whey you fall 'on purpose'.

Also, notice how low Sonny kept his left hand guard, just inviting Cassius to the
throw the right hand.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:14 AM   #69
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by ron u.k. View Post
Absolutely spot on that's something that people ignore. Whatever did happen certainly didn't involve Ali.
Clay was surprised Liston went down as early as he did.

He wasn't ready for it and almost blew the cover.

In an interview before he even left the ring, he didn't know if he had hit him with a left hook or a right cross. He didn't have a clue why Liston went down

I think the ending had been rehearsed and Liston strayed from the script.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:31 AM   #70
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Mr. Bill B,

Negotiations between I-C-P (Robert Nilon and Garland Sherry) and the Las Vegas
Convention Center had started in mid-February 1965, about having the next Heavyweight
Championship out there in November 1965.

Floyd was 'suddenly hot' after his great battle with George Chuvalo on February 1, 1965.

Cassius Clay vs. Floyd Patterson was already in gear.

Of course, Sonny Liston had his license revoked by the State of Nevada in 1964, and would
'not' be fighting there.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:36 PM   #71
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

BillB is probably the most gullibe poster on here. I bet he believes all consiracy theories.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:46 PM   #72
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Clay was surprised Liston went down as early as he did.

He wasn't ready for it and almost blew the cover.

In an interview before he even left the ring, he didn't know if he had hit him with a left hook or a right cross. He didn't have a clue why Liston went down

I think the ending had been rehearsed and Liston strayed from the script.
Don't be silly
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:53 PM   #73
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

NY state boxing commission and Miami state authorities investigates both bouts. No evidence of a fix was found.
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:21 PM   #74
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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NY state boxing commission and Miami state authorities investigates both bouts. No evidence of a fix was found.
Mr. Houdini,,,,,,,

You mean Edward Lassman and Al Sherman of the Miami Boxing Commission,

The same 'political hacks' that failed to read the Liston vs. Clay I
fight contract, and permitted Ash Resnick (Gambling Figure) to attend
to the fight in Miami Beach, when the guy was 'banned' from every
gaming facility in Florida.

Oh, those were the guys that investigated the Clay vs. Liston II bouts.

I have more background information on these fights than you'll ever
know.

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 11-18-2012 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:46 PM   #75
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Ignore the facts and emphasize the speculation. Read the SI article.... were they in on the fix also? If what you say was true and the NY state commission was that much anti Liston they would have found a fix if there were evidence of one. Funny you have lots of info/lies you post but tell everyone.....

Why did you never mention the two formal investigations that found no evidence of a fix?

Why did not not mention the technical analysis of the second bout where the film was analyzed frame by frame and concluded that Liston was indeed koed?

Why did you not mention Chuvalos comment that Listons eyes were darting side to side when he was down evidence of brain trauma?

Why did you not mention that Patterson, Fleischer, Walcott, SI reporters, Torres, and many others were at ringside, saw the punch land and all stated the ko was legit?

So you ignore formal investigations and eye witness testimony but insist upon writing about fringe, non specific information, pure speculation that needs to be interpreted by a very imaginative thought process? Bottom line....you don't kill yourself in training if there is to be a fix and if there is a fix especially by such an unpopular fighter as Liston it would be exposed in a formal investigation. Result of both investigations, Miami and NY....no evidence of a fix was found.
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