Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[SuzieQ49]

Wlad beats Marciano. In fact, within the next 2 years, Wlad might move into my top 5 heavyweights of all time list if he defeats povetkin, pulev, and price.

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Quite simple great fighters don't have ko losses like Wlad has times 3. He can't take a punch, punishment. Nor does he exhibit all time great fighting skills. It's jab right hand, jab right hand all encased in that typical European straight up style. Can't block, can't slip, can't feint. Since he does not have great defensive skills you don't see counters off blocks or slips. Marciano was deceptively hard to hit. Walcott thought he would hit Rocky at will but once in the ring it was not to be the case. Marciano was cute in there...lots of weaving and rolling with shots and that crouch allowed punches to be ducked quite effectively. Marciano unlike the stiffs Wlad has faced would be weaving under that jab..he would not be the open target being imagined here. The shot to hit Wlad with is a right hand since he fights straight up with his chin out and left hand down. Rocky had one of the best right hands in boxing history.

Let me tell you I've been studying boxing since 1970 and this is the worst paragraph i've ever read by far.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Nor does he exhibit all time great fighting skills. It's jab right hand, jab right hand all encased in that typical European straight up style. Can't block, can't slip, can't feint. Since he does not have great defensive skills you don't see counters off blocks or slips.

So, what --- he has no defensive ability and no chin? Call me naive, but I think you'd need at least one of those to be ranked in the top10 for more than 12 years.

Reading the above post you'd think Wlad is worse than Tex Cobb, for fuck's sake. No feinting? Have you even watched a single Wlad fight? He constantly feints, which is why no one can get away from the jab and/or big right hand. He also blocks and slips, but you only need to do so much of that when you're tall and have good footwork.

At least explain this to me. If Klitschko has no defensive skills at all - just an open target - how come he rarely loses a round? You'll now probably say "his opponents aren't as great as the mighty Ledouxes, Evangelistas and Cockells of yesteryear!". Then explain to me why Joe Louis, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson, who fought their share of lesser opponents, still found themselves losing more rounds? Despite them not being wide open like Wlad (), them having the ability to block, slip and feint, why aren't they as dominant in winning rounds?

[Flea Man]

Yay, ChrisPontius is back How's things man?

[MagnaNasakki]

Rocky's the greater fighter, but I can't think for the life of me how he shakes Wlad off on the inside. He'd need to be free to punch, and he'd be wrapped up with prejudice. There is no way I can be convinced that any 190 pound professional is stronger than a taller 240 pound one to the degree it takes to neutralize an effective clinch.

On the outside, all Rocky can do is crouch, feint, and roll. He'd still be getting hit with good jabs, though, and that would open right hands.

I think Rocky is tough enough to try, and try, and try, but eventually, Wlad gets the right hand he's looking for home, and the smaller heavyweight is blindsided either by a cut or swelling traded for his hard work.

I think Wlad stops him late with one or two big shots, but I can see a 15 round points decision. Rocky is the type of guy to take it, and never stop coming, and Wlad, while very powerful, very much likes that power to materialize in the form of one big, perfect shot, which Rocky would have the brains and the balls to deny him for a rather long period of time.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

So, what --- he has no defensive ability and no chin? Call me naive, but I think you'd need at least one of those to be ranked in the top10 for more than 12 years.

Reading the above post you'd think Wlad is worse than Tex Cobb, for fuck's sake. No feinting? Have you even watched a single Wlad fight? He constantly feints, which is why no one can get away from the jab and/or big right hand. He also blocks and slips, but you only need to do so much of that when you're tall and have good footwork.

At least explain this to me. If Klitschko has no defensive skills at all - just an open target - how come he rarely loses a round? You'll now probably say "his opponents aren't as great as the mighty Ledouxes, Evangelistas and Cockells of yesteryear!". Then explain to me why Joe Louis, Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson, who fought their share of lesser opponents, still found themselves losing more rounds? Despite them not being wide open like Wlad (), them having the ability to block, slip and feint, why aren't they as dominant in winning rounds?

Just so you know, I agree with your reasoning 100%. He's this dominant against all fighters he faces because, quite simply, he's a great heavyweight too. Fighters only rarely dominate their eras this conclusively. Wlad hasn't been seriously challenged, much less pushed, since Sam Peter I. That's an incredibly streak of pure can't be touched unstoppable dominance.

But I'd contribute that a big reason Wlad is more dominant is because he's the best clinching heavyweight of all time . When he gets a hold of you, its better to just wait till the referee pries you off; He's called, in only half jest, the octopus. Just brute strength, or tenacity when he's holding on, which I dont know, but it's incredibly stifling.

Nobody has a prayer at range, and they don't have the strength to work inside. You aren't going to win many rounds.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by orriray59

I agree with all of this. Wladimir is excellent at maximizing his strengths and minimizing his weaknesses.

What's so devious about it is the trap of it all.

What you THINK you know about him, the weak chin, the panicking, the lack of inside ability, it dictates your whole strategy. "If I can just close the distance, I can work tight hooks and uppercuts, I'll hurt him, he'll panic, it'll be over."

Thing is, that insistent pressure to get inside just makes it easier for him to land his jab and his right hand, and when you get there, he ties you up. It's like a vicious circle, and I've seen it swallow like 5 of his last few opponents. I'll give Wach this, he tried to fight his fight, he was just utterly inferior.

[HOUDINI]

If you think Wlad is skilled in classic boxing then you need to get a better understanding of what great boxing skills are all about. Wlad does not exhibit great boxing skills..period. Walking statue with very questionable wiskers and very questionable courage. No fighter with a questionable chin and questionable courage can be called an all time great fighter. The guy was koed by the breeze from Purities punches...stagger all over the ring dropping in sections, looking for the exits type of knockdowns. Same with Brewster, same with Sanders....but no way Rocky Marciano beats Wlad? If these three zeros can do it why can't a world class all time great champion do the same?

[hdog]

Don't see many fights these days but just watched as much as I could take of Klit's last bout and some 'highlights' from the Hayes fight. Not impressed very much. I don't see him punishing Marciano like some people think and if the Rock makes him move when he doesn't want to, Klitschko's stamina problems will reappear.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

If you think Wlad is skilled in classic boxing then you need to get a better understanding of what great boxing skills are all about. Wlad does not exhibit great boxing skills..period. Walking statue with very questionable wiskers and very questionable courage. No fighter with a questionable chin and questionable courage can be called an all time great fighter. The guy was koed by the breeze from Purities punches...stagger all over the ring dropping in sections, looking for the exits type of knockdowns. Same with Brewster, same with Sanders....but no way Rocky Marciano beats Wlad? If these three zeros can do it why can't a world class all time great champion do the same?

They happened long enough ago that it seems the problems are fixed, and because the styles dont match up.

I have a terrific understanding of great boxing skills. I have some of them, and I've taught others the same skills. Picking fights doesn't ever come down to "just because". Just because one fighter can do it, doesn't mean another can. So, how? Inside? How does he free himself from the clinch? Outside? With counter punches? Is he tall enough to get a right hand over the jab? How does he avoid the worst of the sharpshooting? Rocky doesn't get a free pass in my analysis because Brewster was tough enough to wait Wlad out. He just went 12 rounds; We know that whatever stamina issue plaguing him in the Brewster fight is fixed. The Sanders fight? A lightning fast southpaw counter-puncher. So, Rocky's gonna hit him with a booming straight left hand as he's coming forward to jab?

[HOUDINI]

You don't fix a chin. You don't grow courage. Purity, Brewster and Sanders are all third raters... Marciano was one of the greatest fighters in the hwt division ever to live. (and I'm no great Rocky fan BTW) One of it's hardest punchers. His power is comparable to Louis and Dempsey as per those who saw them all in action. If he hits Wlad, and he will, the fights over.

[rusak]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Is that why Haye who nearly got KO'd by an ex-middle managed to go the distance?

Marciano is a better fighter than Haye, more awkward, harder to hit, way more heart, much better chin, much harder puncher with a workrate and stamina that would any of todays heavyweights blush. Even an old Mormeck who was chinny and never particularly good went 4 rounds but somehow Marciano is gonna get taken out in 2? Fuuuuuarrrrkkkkk offff.

Haye fights nothing like Marciano. That's why he was able to go the distance. Or are you suggesting that Marciano would do what Haye did? I'd say he couldn't if he wanted to. And Marciano is not better than Haye at everything. Marciano is definitely NOT harder to hit from the outside. Haye also has better hand speed and foot speed. I don't think Marciano is a harder puncher than Haye either, probably the other way around.

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

You don't fix a chin. You don't grow courage. Purity, Brewster and Sanders are all third raters... Marciano was one of the greatest fighters in the hwt division ever to live. (and I'm no great Rocky fan BTW) One of it's hardest punchers. His power is comparable to Louis and Dempsey as per those who saw them all in action. If he hits Wlad, and he will, the fights over.

Sanders against Marciano would be a much more interesting match-up.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Just so you know, I agree with your reasoning 100%. He's this dominant against all fighters he faces because, quite simply, he's a great heavyweight too. Fighters only rarely dominate their eras this conclusively. Wlad hasn't been seriously challenged, much less pushed, since Sam Peter I. That's an incredibly streak of pure can't be touched unstoppable dominance.

But I'd contribute that a big reason Wlad is more dominant is because he's the best clinching heavyweight of all time . When he gets a hold of you, its better to just wait till the referee pries you off; He's called, in only half jest, the octopus. Just brute strength, or tenacity when he's holding on, which I dont know, but it's incredibly stifling.

Nobody has a prayer at range, and they don't have the strength to work inside. You aren't going to win many rounds.

I agree with the majority of your points in this thread, though I'll have to take exception to the bold. From my ringside perspective I'm just not sure that letting the ref break you up is the right thing to do with Wlad. Wlad isn't passive in the clinch, he's constantly working, and especially if you're a shorter fighter he sort of drapes himself over you, forcing you to bear his weight. Against Mormeck he was actively pushing down on Mormeck's shoulders which, had Mormeck been a better fighter, would have taken its toll in the later rounds.

As much as Haye got stick for his constant flopping to the floor, somehow I think he had the right idea. Getting clinched up and leaned on by Wlad seems like it would be incredibly draining, and mentally stifling as well, since if your whole game is to work your way inside and once you've done so find yourself unable to work at all it must make you think, "What the hell was the point?" Chambers's throws seemed to shake Wlad up a bit too, though that's obviously impractical to do for any length of time.

I actually think a fighter has the best chance by fighting at range, and not trying to work their way inside, or if they are, realising that they only have a narrow window in which to land meaningful shots before they're tied up. I've yet to see any opponent make a serious attempt to go to Wlad's body, so that might be an option as well. Maybe even a few low blows in the clinch to dissuade him wouldn't be be bad idea too.

I don't know, I'm just throwing things out there. What we do know is that the Wlad riddle is a lot harder to figure out than it at first glance appears.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Rocky's the greater fighter...

I'm not even sure this is true any longer. Note that Wlad's current unbeaten streak is longer than Marciano's entire career. Also, note that Marciano was nothing more than a regional fighter going up against some pretty awful opposition for the majority of his career. He capped off his run against some pretty middling old folks and light heavies in what must have been the weakest era in the division's history.

I'm beginning to think that, minus the rose-tinted mythology and the Italian American jizz fest, Wlad is truly the greater heavyweight.