Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Just so you know, I agree with your reasoning 100%. He's this dominant against all fighters he faces because, quite simply, he's a great heavyweight too. Fighters only rarely dominate their eras this conclusively. Wlad hasn't been seriously challenged, much less pushed, since Sam Peter I. That's an incredibly streak of pure can't be touched unstoppable dominance.

But I'd contribute that a big reason Wlad is more dominant is because he's the best clinching heavyweight of all time . When he gets a hold of you, its better to just wait till the referee pries you off; He's called, in only half jest, the octopus. Just brute strength, or tenacity when he's holding on, which I dont know, but it's incredibly stifling.

Nobody has a prayer at range, and they don't have the strength to work inside. You aren't going to win many rounds.

I agree with the majority of your points in this thread, though I'll have to take exception to the bold. From my ringside perspective I'm just not sure that letting the ref break you up is the right thing to do with Wlad. Wlad isn't passive in the clinch, he's constantly working, and especially if you're a shorter fighter he sort of drapes himself over you, forcing you to bear his weight. Against Mormeck he was actively pushing down on Mormeck's shoulders which, had Mormeck been a better fighter, would have taken its toll in the later rounds.

As much as Haye got stick for his constant flopping to the floor, somehow I think he had the right idea. Getting clinched up and leaned on by Wlad seems like it would be incredibly draining, and mentally stifling as well, since if your whole game is to work your way inside and once you've done so find yourself unable to work at all it must make you think, "What the hell was the point?" Chambers's throws seemed to shake Wlad up a bit too, though that's obviously impractical to do for any length of time.

I actually think a fighter has the best chance by fighting at range, and not trying to work their way inside, or if they are, realising that they only have a narrow window in which to land meaningful shots before they're tied up. I've yet to see any opponent make a serious attempt to go to Wlad's body, so that might be an option as well. Maybe even a few low blows in the clinch to dissuade him wouldn't be be bad idea too.

I don't know, I'm just throwing things out there. What we do know is that the Wlad riddle is a lot harder to figure out than it at first glance appears.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Rocky's the greater fighter...

I'm not even sure this is true any longer. Note that Wlad's current unbeaten streak is longer than Marciano's entire career. Also, note that Marciano was nothing more than a regional fighter going up against some pretty awful opposition for the majority of his career. He capped off his run against some pretty middling old folks and light heavies in what must have been the weakest era in the division's history.

I'm beginning to think that, minus the rose-tinted mythology and the Italian American jizz fest, Wlad is truly the greater heavyweight.

[lufcrazy]

Seamus, I'm asking myself that question also
i think he's closing in fast. I'm struggling to justify why Holmes should rank above him at present.

one thing rocky has going for him is he defeated other undisputed champions. Something wlad is yet to do. But if he beats two top ten guys next year, he might just crack my top 5.

[Asterion]

Originally Posted by Seamus

I'm not even sure this is true any longer. Note that Wlad's current unbeaten streak is longer than Marciano's entire career. Also, note that Marciano was nothing more than a regional fighter going up against some pretty awful opposition for the majority of his career. He capped off his run against some pretty middling old folks and light heavies in what must have been the weakest era in the division's history.

I'm beginning to think that, minus the rose-tinted mythology and the Italian American jizz fest, Wlad is truly the greater heavyweight.

Most of this is true.

Rocky's unbeaten career started in March 1947 and ended in September 1955. That's 8.5 years.

Wlad's unbeaten streak started in October 2004. At the earliest, it could end in his next fight, March 2013. That's also 8.5 years.

Rocky's retired at 32.

Wlad's career, until today, has lasted 16 years. Soon he will be 37 years old.

(In fact, only Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson and James Jeffries had longer unbeaten streaks than Wlad.)

[Asterion]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Seamus, I'm asking myself that question also
i think he's closing in fast. I'm struggling to justify why Holmes should rank above him at present.

Ranking above Holmes is harder for Wlad, imo.

Holmes was undefeated since the start of his career until he was past his prime in 1985. He never lost in his prime. Wlad did at least two times.

That's the main difference. Both dominated mediocre divisions during 7 years, though, and Wlad's comp might be a bit better (just because Holmes never unified and fought a lot of boxers with less than 20 pro fights).

[Bummy Davis]

Funny but I just watched a overweight 40 year old 5'11 Sherman Williams (who is not a puncher) stagger 6"7 Robert Hellenus and a lot of the reasons put forth here are size and Robert who is a puncher could not get off vs the smaller man ...I do not think R.H. is in the class of Klitschko but when a real puncher connect to any chin you never know

After watching Johnathan Banks dispatch the mighty muscled Seth Mitchell and would love to see how the svelt Ezzard Charles with a few more lbs of muscle would do these days

Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of the Klitschko's and I think Vlad has improved with each fight. I think he displayed a great variety of punches vs Wach, it was a showcase fight. The Klitschko's are also very fit but in a 15 round fight fought at a fast pace I can see an ATG like Marciano making him work and Marciano's power, Walcott KO (right hand) Layne KO (Layne proved to be tough chinned before this) some of the Moore battery, can not be discounted...this is a very tough fight for Vlad despite his size and it only takes one snowball to start an avalanche, another question is it 12 or 15 rounds

[Asterion]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

After watching Johnathan Banks dispatch the mighty muscled Seth Mitchell and would love to see how the svelt Ezzard Charles with a few more lbs of muscle would do these days

That's always a risk.

If you change a variable, everything could change. You never know. If you give more muscle to Charles, his speed would change, changing his style and possibly everything, including his stamina and defense. In my opinion, in fantasy matchups you can only use a fighter from his best performance.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by Asterion

Most of this is true.

Rocky's unbeaten career started in March 1947 and ended in September 1955. That's 8.5 years.

Wlad's unbeaten streak started in October 2004. At the earliest, it could end in his next fight, March 2013. That's also 8.5 years.

Rocky's retired at 32.

Wlad's career, until today, has lasted 16 years. Soon he will be 37 years old.

(In fact, only Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson and James Jeffries had longer unbeaten streaks than Wlad.)

Err.. didn't Marciano flee back to the amateurs after that March 47 victory, and wasn't his next pro victory 16 months later? That stretch of professional inactivity, fit between bouts with two non-entities, constitutes 20% of his career. Just further indictment, in my opinion.

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Funny but I just watched a overweight 40 year old 5'11 Sherman Williams (who is not a puncher) stagger 6"7 Robert Hellenus and a lot of the reasons put forth here are size and Robert who is a puncher could not get off vs the smaller man ...I do not think R.H. is in the class of Klitschko but when a real puncher connect to any chin you never know

After watching Johnathan Banks dispatch the mighty muscled Seth Mitchell and would love to see how the svelt Ezzard Charles with a few more lbs of muscle would do these days

Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of the Klitschko's and I think Vlad has improved with each fight. I think he displayed a great variety of punches vs Wach, it was a showcase fight. The Klitschko's are also very fit but in a 15 round fight fought at a fast pace I can see an ATG like Marciano making him work and Marciano's power, Walcott KO (right hand) Layne KO (Layne proved to be tough chinned before this) some of the Moore battery, can not be discounted...this is a very tough fight for Vlad despite his size and it only takes one snowball to start an avalanche, another question is it 12 or 15 rounds

Wlad has little in common with Helenius, who won wide anyway, and Seth Mitchell. Mitchell is also a lot shorter than Wlad and Banks is bigger than Marciano. I question Marciano's ability to get full power on a head shot against Wlad. I can't see him ever connecting with that short right.

[kingfisher3]

what would be the best tactics for marciano to use?
for 6 rounds i would want to see mostly body shots to try and get wlad's hands down a bit and take him out of his comfort zone.
not much rocky can do about clinches himself, so i'll have joe cortez to referee

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by rusak

Haye fights nothing like Marciano. That's why he was able to go the distance. Or are you suggesting that Marciano would do what Haye did? I'd say he couldn't if he wanted to. And Marciano is not better than Haye at everything. Marciano is definitely NOT harder to hit from the outside. Haye also has better hand speed and foot speed. I don't think Marciano is a harder puncher than Haye either, probably the other way around.

I agree to a point, Haye fought to survive which is why he lasted, Marciano would be fighting to win that alone shows you the difference between the fighters. However, that's what I think it would take to beat Wlad, to fight him, not do what Haye did stay on the outside eating punches then blindly lunging in every so often to throw a wild punch. Marciano didn't fight on the outside, every second of every round Marciano was trying to get in close, in order to unleash a barrage of bombs. Haye even tho he went the distance had the absolute worst game plan possible against Wlad by staying on the outside on the end of Wlads jab and yet he still survived. Marciano will be bobing and weaving to get inside, and to fight on the inside something Wlad hasn't proven he's able to do effectivley. Win, Lose or Draw Marciano would give an infinitely better account of himself than Haye.

Haye's feet and handspeed although certainly faster than Marciano accounted for nothing against Wlad other than to run away something you admitted Marciano wouldn't be doing. Marciano's power seemed to be more devastating but it might be able to be argued any way. Marciano certainly throws a HELL of alot more punches tho.

[TheSouthpaw]

Marciano KO by the 6th. And heres why, Brute force power, fact of the matter is Wlad never been as hard as The Rock's gonna lay it on him, and Wlad is just not talented enough to keep a stalker and power puncher like Marciano off his hs big ass, I say Rocky destroys his ass!

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Asterion

Ranking above Holmes is harder for Wlad, imo.

Holmes was undefeated since the start of his career until he was past his prime in 1985. He never lost in his prime. Wlad did at least two times.

That's the main difference. Both dominated mediocre divisions during 7 years, though, and Wlad's comp might be a bit better (just because Holmes never unified and fought a lot of boxers with less than 20 pro fights).

I'm not sure Larry had the sqne dominance to be honest... He struggled in some fights and he never once fought a fellow belt holder. Even when all he had to do was face a mandatory to unify he failed again.

Larry is a better heavyweight than wlad. I'm just not sure he was a better champion.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

If you think Wlad is skilled in classic boxing then you need to get a better understanding of what great boxing skills are all about. Wlad does not exhibit great boxing skills..period. Walking statue with very questionable wiskers and very questionable courage. No fighter with a questionable chin and questionable courage can be called an all time great fighter. The guy was koed by the breeze from Purities punches...stagger all over the ring dropping in sections, looking for the exits type of knockdowns. Same with Brewster, same with Sanders....but no way Rocky Marciano beats Wlad? If these three zeros can do it why can't a world class all time great champion do the same?

Yes, it's well possible that Marciano takes him out. He has the power to do so.

Regarding Wlad's stamina, that's changed a lot. He lost the Purrity and Brewster fights purely because of it - both times he rarely got hit even when he was falling all over the place before being stopped. He used to have very wrong training habits. A lot of weight lifting and sparring 4 intense rounds but rarely more. When he hooked up with Steward, that changed and he trained like a classic boxer. It showed: since then he's shown good stamina. Against Peter he wasn't caught on the ropes a single time during all 12 rounds while maintaining 40-50 punches a round. Against Chambers and Thompson he showed late round power to still score a KO.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Yes, it's well possible that Marciano takes him out. He has the power to do so.

Regarding Wlad's stamina, that's changed a lot. He lost the Purrity and Brewster fights purely because of it - both times he rarely got hit even when he was falling all over the place before being stopped. He used to have very wrong training habits. A lot of weight lifting and sparring 4 intense rounds but rarely more. When he hooked up with Steward, that changed and he trained like a classic boxer. It showed: since then he's shown good stamina. Against Peter he wasn't caught on the ropes a single time during all 12 rounds while maintaining 40-50 punches a round. Against Chambers and Thompson he showed late round power to still score a KO.

Shame he wasted his physical prime with a shit trainer.