Ali v Shavers - Page 2

The Spider · 11-18-2012, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

More revisionism here. The truth is that the fight was televised live on national tv and the judges scorecards were revealed after every round to the home audience. Shavers gave Ali a good fight but there were no cries of a bad decision after this bout. Shavers rocked Ali in several rounds but did little doing his best to conserve himself. He let it all hang out in the last 3 rounds but by that time Ali already had 8 rounds in his pocket. I was not an Ali fan back in 1977 but I found no issues with the scoring....Shavers just did not do enough in many of the first 12 rounds.

Careful with the facts. You'll upset the delusional ones

Unforgiven · 11-18-2012, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D9Garrard

I think taking this fight was testimony to Ali's courage and self-confidence and the result was testimony to his heart and toughness. I'm shocked he signed for the fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spider

Likewise. But Ali had total belief in himself.

Only up to a point.
Let's not forget that he was 'ducking' rematches with Norton and Young at this time. Shavers was considered less of a challenge.

The Spider · 11-18-2012, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Only up to a point.
Let's not forget that he was 'ducking' rematches with Norton and Young at this time. Shavers was considered less of a challenge.

Ali beat Jimmy Young comfortably and by UD about a year and a half prior to meeting Shavers.

I thought Kenny Norton was very stiff not to take the rubber 2 to 1 against Ali, but 3 meetings wasn't enough?

Unforgiven · 11-18-2012, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spider

Ali beat Jimmy Young comfortably and by UD about a year and a half prior to meeting Shavers.

I thought Kenny Norton was very stiff not to take the rubber 2 to 1 against Ali, but 3 meetings wasn't enough?

Many disagree that Ali beat Young comfortably. Many thought Young should have won. I thought they both looked shit. Young then went and beat Foreman. The calls at the time were for Ali to fight Norton or Young. He chose to fight Evangelista and Shavers.
People especially wanted to see Ali face Norton again. Norton beat Young in an eliminator and was scheduled to get another shot.
Yes, people wanted to see a 4th fight.
Ali fought Leon Spinks instead.

The Spider · 11-18-2012, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Many disagree that Ali beat Young comfortably. Many thought Young should have won. I thought they both looked shit. Young then went and beat Foreman. The calls at the time were for Ali to fight Norton or Young. He chose to fight Evangelista and Shavers.
People especially wanted to see Ali face Norton again. Norton beat Young in an eliminator and was scheduled to get another shot.
Yes, people wanted to see a 4th fight.
Ali fought Leon Spinks instead.

As we know only too well, only 3 judges views carry any weight in boxing, and two of them had Ali a comfortable winner against Young, and the other also scored it for Ali.

'People' always want to see any number of different fights, but Ali and Norton did go at it 3 times. As I said earlier, I thought Norton should have got the nod 2/1 in their rubber.

red cobra · 11-18-2012, 05:19 PM

Even though earnie was a little shaky there at the end, he sure won that 15th round. He didn't beat Ali like Young and Norton did, but he sure made his point. he could have ko'ed Ali had he let it all hang out inthe 2nd.

anj · 11-18-2012, 05:38 PM

Ali won the fight it's pretty clear. Shavers was a threat to anyone, a harder hitter than Foreman.

red cobra · 11-18-2012, 05:40 PM

He hurt Ali more than Foreman or Liston ever did...if only he let his hands go and not have been so concerned about gassing out.

The Spider · 11-18-2012, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red cobra

He hurt Ali more than Foreman or Liston ever did...if only he let his hands go and not have been so concerned about gassing out.

I think the damage Foreman inflicted on Ali is understated. He hurt Ali alright, particularly to the body, but Ali took it well.

Shavers landed flush to the jaw a number of times, but again Ali stood firm.

Norton stylistically was a nightmare for Ali, and I though Norton took it 2/1 in their matches.

red cobra · 11-18-2012, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spider

I think the damage Foreman inflicted on Ali is understated. He hurt Ali alright, particularly to the body, but Ali took it well.

Shavers landed flush to the jaw a number of times, but again Ali stood firm.

Norton stylistically was a nightmare for Ali, and I though Norton took it 2/1 in their matches.

You're right on the money Spider!

McGrain · 11-18-2012, 06:45 PM

Dundee had a runner keeping him updated on the scores. So Ali knew he only had to avoid a KO to lose near the end of the fight.

rusak · 11-18-2012, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red cobra

Even though earnie was a little shaky there at the end, he sure won that 15th round. He didn't beat Ali like Young and Norton did, but he sure made his point. he could have ko'ed Ali had he let it all hang out inthe 2nd.

Nah, Shavers didn't win the 15th. He fucked up and let it slip away. I had Ali winning by a point because of that last round. Either way, Shavers still could easily have gotten the decision. The official scorecards were bogus though: 9-6, 9-5 for Ali. Ha, those look like what should have been the scores for Ali-Norton 3 in favor of Norton.

HOUDINI · 11-18-2012, 09:08 PM

There was no controversy concerning this decision. Period. Shavers lost many rounds simply because he was not fighting. His endurance was hugely suspect and his plan was to conserve himself as much as he could and then come on with all he has the tail end of the fight. So by round 12 or 13 Ali had already won 8 rounds. Earnie came on strong seriously hurting Ali in rounds 13 and 14 as well as the 15th....that is until Ali caught him in the las 30 seconds of the round nearly having shavers out by fights end.

D9Garrard · 11-19-2012, 03:24 AM

I hate to agree with HOUDINI, of all people, but I think he's correct about the scoring. I don't believe there was much controversy. I remain impressed that Ali took the fight against Shavers. High risk, low reward opponent, when there were safer opponents to fight out there. I have always been of the opinion that Ali was one of the most courageous fighters that ever laced them up.

MagnaNasakki · 11-19-2012, 12:52 PM

I had Ali winning the fight by a single point, on virtue of that 15th round. That is the textbook definition of stealing a round; Do more damage in 30 seconds then the other guy did in the other 2:30, and convince the audience that you ran out of time.

I can't score a round for a guy I think was lucky the bell came. I just can't. 20 more seconds, its an Ali TKO.

Also, Earnie was the better fighter the night of. He was sharp, Ali was not at all. He was honed, Ali was clearly not well-trained. Earnie just didn't punch! Every round he went out and executed, he won, and easily! But there were so many where he just sat there, gloves up, and Ali pecked away, pecked away.

Earnie gave the fight away. He got to the point where he needed a series of big rounds, and one of his best ended then with him on the verge of being stopped.

Ali legitimately stole that fight. The judge's scorecards were pretty darn good.

11-18-2012, 05:19 PM	#21
red cobra P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The Sea of Tranquility Posts: 22,119 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali v Shavers Even though earnie was a little shaky there at the end, he sure won that 15th round. He didn't beat Ali like Young and Norton did, but he sure made his point. he could have ko'ed Ali had he let it all hang out inthe 2nd.
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11-18-2012, 05:38 PM	#22
anj Fuck The Judges ESB Addict Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Durham/Essex, England Posts: 1,972 vCash: 300	Re: Ali v Shavers Ali won the fight it's pretty clear. Shavers was a threat to anyone, a harder hitter than Foreman.
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11-18-2012, 05:40 PM	#23
red cobra P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The Sea of Tranquility Posts: 22,119 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali v Shavers He hurt Ali more than Foreman or Liston ever did...if only he let his hands go and not have been so concerned about gassing out.
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11-18-2012, 06:45 PM	#26
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 63,229 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali v Shavers Dundee had a runner keeping him updated on the scores. So Ali knew he only had to avoid a KO to lose near the end of the fight.
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11-18-2012, 09:08 PM	#28
HOUDINI Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 647 vCash: 500	Re: Ali v Shavers There was no controversy concerning this decision. Period. Shavers lost many rounds simply because he was not fighting. His endurance was hugely suspect and his plan was to conserve himself as much as he could and then come on with all he has the tail end of the fight. So by round 12 or 13 Ali had already won 8 rounds. Earnie came on strong seriously hurting Ali in rounds 13 and 14 as well as the 15th....that is until Ali caught him in the las 30 seconds of the round nearly having shavers out by fights end.
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11-19-2012, 03:24 AM	#29
D9Garrard Journeyman ESB Jr Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 216 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali v Shavers I hate to agree with HOUDINI, of all people, but I think he's correct about the scoring. I don't believe there was much controversy. I remain impressed that Ali took the fight against Shavers. High risk, low reward opponent, when there were safer opponents to fight out there. I have always been of the opinion that Ali was one of the most courageous fighters that ever laced them up.
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11-19-2012, 12:52 PM	#30
MagnaNasakki Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,819 vCash: 1000	Re: Ali v Shavers I had Ali winning the fight by a single point, on virtue of that 15th round. That is the textbook definition of stealing a round; Do more damage in 30 seconds then the other guy did in the other 2:30, and convince the audience that you ran out of time. I can't score a round for a guy I think was lucky the bell came. I just can't. 20 more seconds, its an Ali TKO. Also, Earnie was the better fighter the night of. He was sharp, Ali was not at all. He was honed, Ali was clearly not well-trained. Earnie just didn't punch! Every round he went out and executed, he won, and easily! But there were so many where he just sat there, gloves up, and Ali pecked away, pecked away. Earnie gave the fight away. He got to the point where he needed a series of big rounds, and one of his best ended then with him on the verge of being stopped. Ali legitimately stole that fight. The judge's scorecards were pretty darn good.
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