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Old 11-18-2012, 04:15 PM   #76
Senor Pepe'
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

MR. HOUDINI,

I believe the investigations were about looking into details of money exchanging hands, which there was none.

And if a legitimate punch was thrown, and landed, which there obviously was in both cases.

Sonny did get hit by a punch, but was it powerful enough to floor him, and keep him down for '17' seconds.

No one will ever know.

A) Cassius Clay had never shown that kind of power before.
B) Sonny Liston never showed that kind of weakness, of not being able absorb a heavy blow.
C) Was that the hardest punch Cassius could have delivered.
D) Had Sonny Liston taken harder punches before.

All fairly simple questions to come up with logical answers for.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:40 PM   #77
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

And if you would have come forward with that type of post then that's fair. But you did NOT. Instead you tried to paint a picture of back room dealings, speculation based on arms length transactions...all trying as you always do to detract from what more than likely were two very legitimate wins by a fighter listed today as the best there ever was. The purpose of your posts are to discredit, not educate. To speculate on unrelated events weaving a inaccurate picture of what really happened.

Both fights formally investigated and no fix found.

Listons shoulder was examined by a total of 8 doctors after fight one and indeed his shoulder was torn. He was given a bad battering...sliced cheekbone, broken nose and a break of his eye orbital. No evidence of a fix watching the fight. Just a super quick young future tag beating a slow aged champion. Been done a hundred times before and since.

Second fight Liston trained like a demon possessed by all accounts. More than likely overtrained. You don't kill yourself in training if a fight is fixed. Liston could not touch Ali in fight one...why would fight 2 be any different? Liston was hit and more than likely hit hard based on the fight film. Experts at ringside stated the punch and resulting ko were legit. Formal investigation after the fight revealed no evidence of a fix.

End of story. Go ahead and start your next string with the sole objective of twisting the truth to discredit Ali.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:37 PM   #78
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Nobody knows how 'hard' Sonny Liston trained for the May 17, 1965 bout.

He could have been informed 'to prepare' like there was a real fight to put on.

Maybe, quite possibly, Sonny was 'in the dark' for awhile, until Robert Nilon dropped
the orders on him.

When Sonny weighed in for his first training session up in Dedham, Mass on
May 3rd, he weighed in at 222 lbs.

Sonny was at a trim 210 lbs. back on November 15, 1964.

Many of his sparring sessions were closed to the public, and only a handful were
viewed by approximately 50 persons at a time, while up in Dedham, Mass. and
Poland Spring House in Maine.

Not sure on where a Sonny Liston Championship Defense would have been held if
he had regained the Title over Cassius Clay up in Lewiston, Maine.

Try nowhere. I-C-P (Robert Nilon) would have had no place to stage it. Not on the
Planet Earth anyway.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:59 PM   #79
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Your post has no facts just speculation. Do everyone a favor and develop some decency. Post to educate not distort. You do a huge disservice to most on here who don't have a clue. I for one am done with this topic.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:51 PM   #80
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Mr.. Houdini,

Fact,,,,, on Thursday - May 6, 1965

Suffolk County District Attorney Garrett H. Byrne, has no problem getting a judge to
sign an injucntion on the fight, to be held at the Boston Garden on May 25th.

The bout is done for Boston.

Why, if everything was on the up and up, why would the DA put a knife in the
promotion.

Go ahead,,,,,,,,spin it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:28 AM   #81
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Sonny Liston will make 5-times more money as an officer (President) of
Inter-Continental-Promotions than if he had regained the Championship Title
from Cassius Clay on May 25, 1965.

As a fighter, you can also 'not' be the promoter of a fight, as per
the rules with boxing commissions in all governing states.

If Sonny Liston regained the Championship, he would have only be able
to collect 30% of his fight purse, after taxes. (70% marginal tax rate).

But, as a fight promoter, he would have been taxed on the corporate rate.

I-C-P had the rights to promote Cassius Clay's next fight, (after Lewiston, Maine).

Sonny would have reaped in more money as an Officer of I-C-P, than actually
fighting in the ring.

Plus, the Cassius Clay vs. Floyd Patterson bout was a 'certified blockbuster',
with an estimated gross revenue of $5,000,000.

If Sonny Liston had regained the Championship on May 25, 1965 - what do you
think would have been the next fight.

Maybe George Chuvalo or Ernie Terrell, which would have been lucky to do $500,000.
end dis meyby y sam prifer faiting 3 or more bams per yr rader dan 1 ibg fait det matters per 10 mans
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:46 AM   #82
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by D9Garrard View Post
Absolutely. I trust the NYBC with all my little innocent heart just like HOUDINI. Why would honorable men in suits and ties possibly overlook any crime, corruption, or graft?

Boxing is a completely pure sport full of honest, virtuous, and pure hearted individuals who would never, never, never, never do anything shady to maximize profits and further their own business interests. In fact, Sonny Liston himself became purified in heart the moment he became an official "professional boxer" and completely repented of a life of hustling and lying as did his handlers and managers.

And when did any State Commission ever find proof of a fix? See, further proof that there has never ever, ever, ever been one instance where a fighter took a dive, mobsters paid off an opponent, or judges took an envelope on the sly to deliver a favorable scorecard.

I'm so glad the ESB "Genius" came along to grace us with his brilliance.

Now that you're done, HOUDINI, I think the adults can return to discussing this subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove View Post
ali was saying to liston get up you good for nothing bum ya aint gonna quit on me a 2nd time! ali was fuming cuz he knew liston wanted to quit once he hit the floor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
In the post-fight interview Ali didn't even know what to say when he was asked "what punch did you hit him with?", he was stumped for words. I think his first guess was a left hook.
You can hear him shouting at his entourage "don't say nothing ! don't say nothing !" (meaning don't say anything.)
Immediately post-fight this is.

R "HOUDINI" , "Ali_" , "Stevie G" , "johnmaff36" , "Solomon deeds" ol de seim ?
Or did "Bokaj" start at least 1 of them in order 2 "save face" (or save integrity) of his original account ? or r there actually 2-3 different ppl there running these 6 accounts ("Bokaj" included) .


Most of those who've seen de fight live thought that it was a fix , including most of fighters in attendance , Ali (himself) thought that it was a dive (but will probably claim that it was legit in a hindsight if interviewed/asked about it ) , almost every boxing commission in de world that mattered and even some of those that less mattered banned Liston as soon as after de 1st fight , and Liston's (and his handlers') reasons were brought in detail in this thread and others .

But HOUDINI will keep posting (4de 5th time or more?) that Liston's foot was lifted by de 4ce of de panch and that he was found innocent by de innocent boxing commission .

There was no Larry Hazard in office back then , was there ?
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:07 AM   #83
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

hey pepe, maybe you can explain big cat williams 1st knockdown - that didn't look like much of a shot with ali going backwards. did williams take a dive? big cat did look in good shape tho. ali didn't have any fighting skills to win fair don't ya think?

BORKED

p.s. i think here at his peak he was light years ahead of any other heavyweight. liston was unlucky to be facing him coming to his peak.
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:25 AM   #84
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by groove View Post
hey pepe, maybe you can explain big cat williams 1st knockdown - that didn't look like much of a shot with ali going backwards. did williams take a dive? big cat did look in good shape tho. ali didn't have any fighting skills to win fair don't ya think?

BORKED

p.s. i think here at his peak he was light years ahead of any other heavyweight. liston was unlucky to be facing him coming to his peak.
Williams was aged and shot going in against Ali , was not he ?

A damaged never was de guds .

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:02 AM   #85
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Mr.. Houdini,

Fact,,,,, on Thursday - May 6, 1965

Suffolk County District Attorney Garrett H. Byrne, has no problem getting a judge to
sign an injucntion on the fight, to be held at the Boston Garden on May 25th.

The bout is done for Boston.

Why, if everything was on the up and up, why would the DA put a knife in the
promotion.

Go ahead,,,,,,,,spin it.
There's no mystery about that. The judge granted an injunction because Inter-Continental Promotions weren't licenced to promote fights in Massachusetts. They tried to use the local promoter Sam Silverman as a front man but it didn't wash - any more than their attempt to work around the WBA's ban on rematch clauses in the first bout.

Of course, it may well be that the authorities would have turned a blind eye if it had not been for Liston's criminal past and connections, and Ali's membership of the Nation of Islam. But the verdict was a straightforward matter of legality, not an opinion on the likely outcome of the fight.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:53 AM   #86
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

Formal NY state athletic commission investigation came to the conclusion there was no evidence of a fix. Patterson, Torres, Fleisher, Walcott, SI reporter and as per those sitting at ringside who were in position to see the punch felt the KO was legit. Please show a formal investigation that came to the conclusion that the fight was fixed.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:59 AM   #87
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

But you DO see fights Ali had during his first reign where he floors contenders with what looks like glacing blows. Williams first KD and the KO of Folley as the knowledable posters mentioned. So Ali was showing similar punching capabilities during that period in his career. Later on we all know he had hand issues which hurt his punching power.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:17 AM   #88
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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end dis meyby y sam prifer faiting 3 or more bams per yr rader dan 1 ibg fait det matters per 10 mans
What's Sam,Bams,and Dan got to do with it?
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:06 AM   #89
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
SI article continued.......

There was a wonderful irrationality to Walcott's action, which was reflected in everything he said later. He stopped the fight, he admitted, only after he had been informed by Fleischer, who had no official connection with the match, that the count had reached 12. But moments earlier he obviously had been prepared to allow the bout to continue, possibly on the theory that since Clay had not gone to a neutral corner there had not been a count of 10. Immediately after he stopped the bout, however, Walcott told a reporter: "It didn't make any difference if I counted or not. I could have counted to 24. Liston was in a dream world, and the only thing that could have happened was that he'd be seriously hurt."

Watching Liston after the end, it was perfectly clear he had been badly—if not seriously—hurt. He stood vaguely for a moment, then staggered two steps backward as Reddish approached him and led him to his corner. It was about then, with the ring rapidly filling up with uninvited characters, that George Chuvalo, the Canadian heavyweight champion who had hoped to fight Liston if Sonny won, climbed through the ropes and shoved Clay, yelling, "Fix!" He was restrained, but later he said that he had seen Liston's eyes while the challenger was on the floor, and he knew that he was not in bad shape. "His eyes were darting from side to side like this," he said, darting his eyes from side to side. "When a lighter is hurt his eyes roll up."

In fact, Chuvalo was giving unwitting testimony to the power of the blow.

"Chuvalo is wrong," said Dr. Carroll L. Witten, former Kentucky State Boxing Commissioner, who has studied the reactions of knocked-out fighters. "The side-to-side movement of eyes is commonly associated with temporary unconsciousness and is one of the first things you look for. It is called nystagmus."

About half an hour after the fight, sitting on a training table and dressed in blue jeans, a gray sweat shirt and heavy brogans, Liston offered his own testimony.

"I didn't think he could hit that hard," he said, oddly cheerful. "But I couldn't pick up the count. I think," he added, apparently unaware that it was he who first resumed fighting after the knockdown, "I could have continued if I had picked up the count."

Had the fight been permitted to continue, it would have done Liston small good; Clay was in control from the opening surprise punch, and in all likelihood would have scored a second knockout.
u think that only u can fake it 2 your hubby ?
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:08 AM   #90
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Default Re: Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

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What's Sam,Bams,and Dan got to do with it?
dey go2du wiz evrising
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