Did Folley take the fall against Ali?

anj · 11-18-2012, 04:45 PM

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=VFFDe9FQL3s&feature=g-vrec[/ame]

It was by no means a big hit whatsoever. Folley seemed to be knocked out cold. Then gets up and starts stumbling around. That's not a typical behaviour of a boxer who is knocked cold (watching fights we can see this). He was rolling around but it looked pretty mindful and calculated.

KO is from 9:09 onwards.

Liston seemingly took the fall as well.

Did any others take the fall against Ali?

I don't really want responses from people who are hell bent on hating on Ali. Ali number 2 P4P, take that suckers.

red cobra · 11-18-2012, 05:08 PM

I just don't think Folley had much of a chin...he was a patsy for Ali. I think Eddie Machen would have given Clay a much better fight. He was ballsier, could move better and had a better chin than Folley.

ron u.k. · 11-18-2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anj

[url]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=VFFDe9FQL3s&feature=g-vrec[/url]

It was by no means a big hit whatsoever. Folley seemed to be knocked out cold. Then gets up and starts stumbling around. That's not a typical behaviour of a boxer who is knocked cold (watching fights we can see this). He was rolling around but it looked pretty mindful and calculated.

KO is from 9:09 onwards.

Liston seemingly took the fall as well.

Did any others take the fall against Ali?

I don't really want responses from people who are hell bent on hating on Ali. Ali number 2 P4P, take that suckers.

Are you Pepe in disguise?

Muchmoore · 11-18-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red cobra

I just don't think Folley had much of a chin...he was a patsy for Ali. I think Eddie Machen would have given Clay a much better fight. He was ballsier, could move better and had a better chin than Folley.

Machen was a tricky fighter man just a smooth operator. I actually might watch him take on Liston now, haven't seen that one in a while

Folley knew his stuff but yeah like you said he was never durable and as long as you didnt let him control you with the jab you could take him. Folleys jab to the body in the Ali fight was smart though and it bought him some time.

No it wasn't a dive.

red cobra · 11-18-2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muchmoore

Machen was a tricky fighter man just a smooth operator. I actually might watch him take on Liston now, haven't seen that one in a while

Folley knew his stuff but yeah like you said he was never durable and as long as you didnt let him control you with the jab you could take him. Folleys jab to the body in the Ali fight was smart though and it bought him some time.

No it wasn't a dive.

Finally, somebody who agrees with me on Machen... he had more imagination than folley. he didn't roll oiver and die vs Liston..he didn't win, but he had no fear of Sonny. He taunted Liston till the end. machen really won my respect in that fight.

BillB · 11-18-2012, 05:48 PM

Ali and Folley were good friends before and after the fight.

Ali was quoted as saying Folley needed money and he wanted to give him a payday.

Dive- No clue- it looked like it, but who knows.

The Funny Man 7 · 11-18-2012, 09:33 PM

Folley's life and career was punctuated with episodes of strange behavior. The people around him attested that Zora was very, very odd, maybe even genuinely mentally ill, like Machen.

Do I think the fix was in? No. I just think Ali was in brilliant form, he beat the brakes of Folley who unraveled and suddenly thought, 'okay, that's enough' and he was stayed down when Ali dropped him.

leverage · 11-18-2012, 10:16 PM

I doubt that folley even saw that right hand because it was so fast. When a boxer sees a punch coming , his body tenses up so that if the punch did land, he could better absorb it.

Folley really didn't have a chance not only because of the speed of the punch but because of the angle tha it was thrown from. This is what made ali's punches so effective.

young griffo · 11-19-2012, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leverage

I doubt that folley even saw that right hand because it was so fast. When a boxer sees a punch coming , his body tenses up so that if the punch did land, he could better absorb it.

Folley really didn't have a chance not only because of the speed of the punch but because of the angle tha it was thrown from. This is what made ali's punches so effective.

This.

Plus it was a well timed little peach of a punch that landed square.

Senor Pepe' · 11-19-2012, 08:09 AM

Zora fought well in that bout, and did very well in the First 2-Rounds, winning
them both.

And held 'Even' ground for much of Round 3.

But, as usual, Zora was 'suspect' in the 'punch taking ability', as he liked to go to the
canvas. Sometimes for a rest, and sometimes to sleep.

No dive here, as Zora went as far as many had thought.

Cassius Clay defeated another old 1950's Heavyweight, who was at his prime
before JFK was President.

johnmaff36 · 11-19-2012, 09:06 AM

yes, he took the dive. All Ali KO's were dives, dont you know that?

johnmaff36 · 11-19-2012, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Zora fought well in that bout, and did very well in the First 2-Rounds, winning
them both.

And held 'Even' ground for much of Round 3.

But, as usual, Zora was 'suspect' in the 'punch taking ability', as he liked to go to the
canvas. Sometimes for a rest, and sometimes to sleep.

No dive here, as Zora went as far as many had thought.

Cassius Clay defeated another old 1950's Heavyweight, who was at his prime
before JFK was President.

Genuine question SP.

Which, if any, of Ali's title wins do you think were on the level and not a fix/dive/old opponent/dodgy ref or dodgier judges?

Senor Pepe' · 11-19-2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

Genuine question SP.

Which, if any, of Ali's title wins do you think were on the level and not a fix/dive/old opponent/dodgy ref or dodgier judges?

vs. Liston I............Obvious Funny Business (Follow The Money)
vs. Liston II...........Fix, Fake, Fraud, Phony
vs. Patterson.........Legitimate (Floyd had a Bad Back Though)
vs. Chuvalo...........Legitimate (George was a fill-in replacement though)
vs. London............Legitimate (London Falls Down)
vs. Cooper.............Legitimate (Heres Comes the Blood)
vs. Mildenberger......Legitimate (Milton Berle was the #1 WBA Challenger)
vs. Terrell..............Legitimate (Though Many said Ernie was Over-Rated)
vs. Williams............Legitimate (A Shell of a Fighter, Literally Shot)
vs. Folley..............Legitimate (Give the Old Guy a Chance)

HOUDINI · 11-19-2012, 11:41 AM

First Ali Liston fight was formally investigated by Florida state authorities. They found no evidence of a fix.

Second Ali Liston fight was formally investigated by the NY state athletic commission. They found no evidence of a fix.

End of story.

MagnaNasakki · 11-19-2012, 12:10 PM

I agree with Houdini. I don't back theories, if all official investigations clear a fight, its clear.

If Zora was taking a dive, it would have made more sense to just go, not fight extremely well. He gave Ali a nice match, and some difficulty.

Do I think he could have risen from the final knockdown? Yes. But most knockouts are a combination of hurting a fighter and breaking his spirit. It is possible, and indeed often necessary, to CONVINCE him to stay down. I find a consistent body attack to be the ticket, I'd imagine the sharp, quick, painful punches of Ali and his taunting style were his.

11-18-2012, 04:45 PM	#1
anj Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: good Posts: 1,883 vCash: 300	Did Folley take the fall against Ali? [ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=VFFDe9FQL3s&feature=g-vrec[/ame] It was by no means a big hit whatsoever. Folley seemed to be knocked out cold. Then gets up and starts stumbling around. That's not a typical behaviour of a boxer who is knocked cold (watching fights we can see this). He was rolling around but it looked pretty mindful and calculated. KO is from 9:09 onwards. Liston seemingly took the fall as well. Did any others take the fall against Ali? I don't really want responses from people who are hell bent on hating on Ali. Ali number 2 P4P, take that suckers.
Top

11-18-2012, 05:08 PM	#2
red cobra Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The Sea of Tranquility Posts: 12,960 vCash: 1000	Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali? I just don't think Folley had much of a chin...he was a patsy for Ali. I think Eddie Machen would have given Clay a much better fight. He was ballsier, could move better and had a better chin than Folley.
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11-18-2012, 05:48 PM	#6
BillB Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 605 vCash: 500	Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali? Ali and Folley were good friends before and after the fight. Ali was quoted as saying Folley needed money and he wanted to give him a payday. Dive- No clue- it looked like it, but who knows.
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11-18-2012, 09:33 PM	#7
The Funny Man 7 Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: here (duh!) Posts: 2,938 vCash: 1587	Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali? Folley's life and career was punctuated with episodes of strange behavior. The people around him attested that Zora was very, very odd, maybe even genuinely mentally ill, like Machen. Do I think the fix was in? No. I just think Ali was in brilliant form, he beat the brakes of Folley who unraveled and suddenly thought, 'okay, that's enough' and he was stayed down when Ali dropped him.
Top

11-18-2012, 10:16 PM	#8
leverage Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 656 vCash: 1000	Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali? I doubt that folley even saw that right hand because it was so fast. When a boxer sees a punch coming , his body tenses up so that if the punch did land, he could better absorb it. Folley really didn't have a chance not only because of the speed of the punch but because of the angle tha it was thrown from. This is what made ali's punches so effective.
Top

11-19-2012, 08:09 AM	#10
Senor Pepe' Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 4,710 vCash: 500	Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali? Zora fought well in that bout, and did very well in the First 2-Rounds, winning them both. And held 'Even' ground for much of Round 3. But, as usual, Zora was 'suspect' in the 'punch taking ability', as he liked to go to the canvas. Sometimes for a rest, and sometimes to sleep. No dive here, as Zora went as far as many had thought. Cassius Clay defeated another old 1950's Heavyweight, who was at his prime before JFK was President.
Top

11-19-2012, 09:06 AM	#11
johnmaff36 Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ireland Posts: 2,610 vCash: 1000	Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali? yes, he took the dive. All Ali KO's were dives, dont you know that?
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11-19-2012, 11:41 AM	#14
HOUDINI Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 708 vCash: 500	Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali? First Ali Liston fight was formally investigated by Florida state authorities. They found no evidence of a fix. Second Ali Liston fight was formally investigated by the NY state athletic commission. They found no evidence of a fix. End of story.
Top

11-19-2012, 12:10 PM	#15
MagnaNasakki Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,829 vCash: 1000	Re: Did Folley take the fall against Ali? I agree with Houdini. I don't back theories, if all official investigations clear a fight, its clear. If Zora was taking a dive, it would have made more sense to just go, not fight extremely well. He gave Ali a nice match, and some difficulty. Do I think he could have risen from the final knockdown? Yes. But most knockouts are a combination of hurting a fighter and breaking his spirit. It is possible, and indeed often necessary, to CONVINCE him to stay down. I find a consistent body attack to be the ticket, I'd imagine the sharp, quick, painful punches of Ali and his taunting style were his.
Top