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Old 11-19-2012, 09:41 AM   #151
SuzieQ49
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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He capped off his run against some pretty middling old folks and light heavies in what must have been the weakest era in the division's history.

Seamus, stop saying that. Marciano's era was filled with hall of fame champions(Walcott, Charles, Moore, H Johnson) and young, dangerous punchers (Henry, Baker, Valdes, Layne) and a dangerous old vet (Louis)

Certainly it was far better than Dempsey's era
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:14 AM   #152
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Seamus, stop saying that. Marciano's era was filled with hall of fame champions(Walcott, Charles, Moore, H Johnson) and young, dangerous punchers (Henry, Baker, Valdes, Layne) and a dangerous old vet (Louis)

Certainly it was far better than Dempsey's era
Better than Dempsey's WHITE era, which is the only part of his era he chose to fight.

To claim that Walcott and Charles were in the primes of their physical abilities is intellectually dishonest.

To claim that Charles or Moore were anything more than blown up light heavyweights who were able to exploit a weak era for heavies is likewise.

Louis was dangerous but by the time Rocky got to him was a balding, bumbling old, one handed fighter. Marciano pretty much had to fight him but I pretty much don't have to give him credit for beating the GREAT Joe Louis.

Sure, I'm playing devil's advocate, but if a gaggle of late 30's light heavies suddenly took over Lennox Lewis' or Klit's era we would never hear the end of it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:44 PM   #153
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Better than Dempsey's WHITE era, which is the only part of his era he chose to fight.

To claim that Walcott and Charles were in the primes of their physical abilities is intellectually dishonest.

To claim that Charles or Moore were anything more than blown up light heavyweights who were able to exploit a weak era for heavies is likewise.

Louis was dangerous but by the time Rocky got to him was a balding, bumbling old, one handed fighter. Marciano pretty much had to fight him but I pretty much don't have to give him credit for beating the GREAT Joe Louis.

Sure, I'm playing devil's advocate, but if a gaggle of late 30's light heavies suddenly took over Lennox Lewis' or Klit's era we would never hear the end of it.
People ALREADY call this era weak. If Chad Dawson became a heavyweight titlist? People would be howling like dogs.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:32 PM   #154
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Marciano did NOT wear 6 ounce gloves
Oh yes he did.

Here's a newspaper article on the ****ell fight:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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Briefly presented, as the fighters themselves remained in their respective camps to train for actual combat, the issues involved:
The use of eight-ounce gloves, as California law requires for all divisions over 147 pounds, instead of the six-ounce gloves common in other states for title matches. Marciano's manager, Al Weill, roared disapproval of the eight-ouncers.
The runt was beating up other runts wearing 6 oz gloves.
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:50 AM   #155
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

Still not impressed with the pro Marciano debate in here. So now Marciano wins because he punches really really hard? Please. That's third grade debating right there.

Can no one come up with a realistic breakdown of the fight that favours Marciano winning yet takes into account all the physical and stylistic problems that Wlad would pose him? How Marciano would close the distance, for example, or how he'd avoid getting tied up in the clinch, how he reacts to Wlad's jab etc.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:05 AM   #156
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Can no one come up with a realistic breakdown of the fight that favours Marciano winning yet takes into account all the physical and stylistic problems that Wlad would pose him? How Marciano would close the distance, for example, or how he'd avoid getting tied up in the clinch, how he reacts to Wlad's jab etc.
i have tried to imagine it but the only way is a lucky punch early or wlad being well off his game. i posted a possible tactic, taking wlad out of his comfort zone(for the first time in years), but to do that rocky's getting hit a lot, and wlad takes bodyshots ok anyway.

i'd need 10 to bet rocky, and that would only be small (1.3 for klit bet)

if the fights in rocky's era wlad gets even more clinch advantage
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:13 AM   #157
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

I'd give him about the same odds as I'd give Sugar Ray Robinson going up against Muhammad Ali, the difference in weight being roughly the same.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:20 AM   #158
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

Obviously I'm picking Wlad, since the size difference is just too much for Rocky, but it could be a fight that lasts longer than many think, and one where Wlad might look quite poor in winning.
Wlad does not knock opponents out early, and I don't think he's a good finisher either. The height disparity could make him look awkward, even cumbersome, as he punches down on a target that's about 5'6" or less when crouched.

Wlad won't turn tiger until he's absolutely so convinced of his own superiority that he feels it's safe to do so, especially so because even though much smaller, Marciano has the capacity to buzz Wlad, I have no doubt about that.

So for me, the fight is really Wlad doing what he wants from the outside, but not looking good in the process...maybe even getting a little frustrated, as he has in the past. Depending on how well Marciano absorbs a big punch, he either gets stopped mid-rounds or suffers a bad cut and the fight is halted in the later rounds.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:17 AM   #159
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

Marciano is a better boxer in every shape and form. Who has Wlad beaten to gauge how he will deal with a great like Marciano? Nobody, one even one fighter on his CV comes close.

In martial arts there is no weight division. Size means nothing. Skills win fights. Wlad was or never will have the pure boxing talent The Rock Had.

A few clips on Vladdys boys chin and he is going to be staggering all over the place. He is NOT an unstoppable wrecking machice and is ealisy beat with the right tools.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:17 AM   #160
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by kingfisher3 View Post
i have tried to imagine it but the only way is a lucky punch early or wlad being well off his game. i posted a possible tactic, taking wlad out of his comfort zone(for the first time in years), but to do that rocky's getting hit a lot, and wlad takes bodyshots ok anyway.

i'd need 10 to bet rocky, and that would only be small (1.3 for klit bet)

if the fights in rocky's era wlad gets even more clinch advantage
Difficult to see how Marciano lands consistent hard bodyshots without falling into clinch range or overreaching and getting his head pulled down by Wlad's left (which isn't going to be a massive danger to him since Wlad doesn't really throw uppercuts when his opponent is in that postition, but it would certainly be frustrating and perhaps physically draining to his legs). It might be his best option, but like you said it's really quite a slim one. And I think Wlad has shown that he reacts a lot better to being temporarily taken out of his comfort zone than in the past.

I'm not referring to you kingfisher, but too many Marciano fans are supposing a fantasy here: that Wlad is just going to stand in one place a la Helenius and let Marciano close the distance with ease then allow him to tee off on his body or head without doing anything to stifle his work. This is simply not how Wlad fights. The swaying head movement that Marciano employs might cause Wlad to whiff a few over his back and shoulders, but it's not going to make him totally unhittable, and as he's trying to inch his way forward, Wlad will be inching his way back or around, snapping at his head with the jab and occasional right and clinching up or pushing down on him if he finds himself in Rocky's danger zone. The occasional wild right might clip him as he's leaning back, but his last few fights have shown that that's not going to be enough to cut it, and the height and weight disparity will take a lot off the shot anyway.

I respect Marciano but this is really not a hard fight to figure out. Wlad simply holds too many advantages here, whatever the Rock's rep as a come-forwarding badass with a will of iron and boulders in his fists. I don't expect a blowout, but I do expect a very one-sided and probably frustrating looking fight probably ending in ref or corner stoppage sometime around the eighth or ninth.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:25 AM   #161
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by dinovelvet View Post
Marciano is a better boxer in every shape and form. Who has Wlad beaten to gauge how he will deal with a great like Marciano? Nobody, one even one fighter on his CV comes close.

In martial arts there is no weight division. Size means nothing. Skills win fights. Wlad was or never will have the pure boxing talent The Rock Had.

A few clips on Vladdys boys chin and he is going to be staggering all over the place. He is NOT an unstoppable wrecking machice and is ealisy beat with the right tools.
1. Which fighter has Marciano ever beaten that was more than 200 pounds in his prime and had more than 10 wins?
2.Marciano got dropped by Moore, no offence, Moore was a very good puncher p4p. But he is a lot below Holyfield who is a lot below Lewis who is a bit below Wlad in terms of power.
3.The most dominant forces in the hw division most often outweighted most of their opponents. (there are exceptions but size makes up for skill)
Lewis/Ali/prime Tyson/Wlad/foreman/frazier/Louis all outweighted most of their opponents.
Size is not everything but put two equally skilled guys in front of each other and the bigger guy wins.
4.Wlad has already shown to be pretty strong against body punches and in the modern era Marciano would use thicker/bigger gloves making his body punches less effective, and Marciano his very short reach would limit his offence by a large amount.
5.Marciano doesn't have the tools to negate the size difference.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:54 AM   #162
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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1. Which fighter has Marciano ever beaten that was more than 200 pounds in his prime and had more than 10 wins?
2.Marciano got dropped by Moore, no offence, Moore was a very good puncher p4p. But he is a lot below Holyfield who is a lot below Lewis who is a bit below Wlad in terms of power.
3.The most dominant forces in the hw division most often outweighted most of their opponents. (there are exceptions but size makes up for skill)
Lewis/Ali/prime Tyson/Wlad/foreman/frazier/Louis all outweighted most of their opponents.
Size is not everything but put two equally skilled guys in front of each other and the bigger guy wins.
4.Wlad has already shown to be pretty strong against body punches and in the modern era Marciano would use thicker/bigger gloves making his body punches less effective, and Marciano his very short reach would limit his offence by a large amount.
5.Marciano doesn't have the tools to negate the size difference.
Which fighter over 210lbs beat him. None , so you cant make the comparison.

Every fighter Tyson blew away was taller and weighed more than him.

Putting size before skills is a basic , Mickey Mouse outlook on boxing.

Last edited by dinovelvet; 12-05-2012 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:00 AM   #163
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

I think Wlad would beat him too. If Rocky was a faster then he could beat Wlad. I see Frazier's style for example beating Wlad. Rocky does have that one punch power though, so you could never count him out, but I would say Wlad UD.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:26 AM   #164
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

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Originally Posted by dinovelvet View Post
Which fighter over 210lbs beat him. None , so you cant make the comparison.

Every fighter Tyson blew away was taller and weighed more than him.

Putting size before skills is a basic , Mickey Mouse outlook on boxing.
Up to Spinks when Tyson was prime:

Tyson outweighted:


Hector Mercedes
Trent Singleton
Ricardo Spain
Larry Sims
Lorenzo Canady
Michael Johnson
Eddie Richardson
Conroy Nelson
Mark Young
David Jaco
Jesse ferguson
Steve Zouski
James Tillis
William Hosea
Lorenzo Boyd
Marvis frazier
Jose Ribalta
Alfonzo Ratliff
Trevor Berbick
Pinklon Thomas
Michael Spinks
21 fighter outweighted, some were cruisers (not blown up, but true sub200 guys)

There were a few fighters who weighted in at the same weight.

And a minority who outweighted Tyson.


It is not a coincidence, size matters.
Skills matters too, but size CAN make up for skills.
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Old 12-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #165
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

Wlad wins easily. Too big, too skilled.... Marciano wasn't even really a HW by today's standards! It would be a ridiculously one sided affair.
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